Pie in the sky?

Hey everyone,

I am about to graduate with a 2:1 in Economics from Lancaster University. A few questions:

• Is this good enough to get a job with an investment bank assuming my CV is packed with extracurricular stuff etc?
  
• If not (as I suspect) then how easy is it to get a job with a prop firm as a fresh graduate?
  
• Are prop firms a valid career option for a new graduate? i.e. Is there a good chance of making money after the initial trading?
  
• Does trading experience with a prop firm look good if later applying to investment banks?
  
• Assuming that you don't get paid during the 3 month training period (is this true?), does that mean you need to come into it with some serious capital behind you to fund a) training and b) initial losses after training?

In essence, my most important question to you guys is whether trading at a prop firm is a pie in the sky plan with little chance of success, or whether I have a good chance of making some graduate level cash in my first year i.e. >£25,000

Thanks in advance for any help and advice you can give, it is very much appreciated.

polyphonic456 said:

Hey everyone,

I am about to graduate with a 2:1 in Economics from Lancaster University. A few questions:

• Is this good enough to get a job with an investment bank assuming my CV is packed with extracurricular stuff etc?
  
• If not (as I suspect) then how easy is it to get a job with a prop firm as a fresh graduate?
  
• Are prop firms a valid career option for a new graduate? i.e. Is there a good chance of making money after the initial trading?
  
• Does trading experience with a prop firm look good if later applying to investment banks?
  
• Assuming that you don't get paid during the 3 month training period (is this true?), does that mean you need to come into it with some serious capital behind you to fund a) training and b) initial losses after training?

In essence, my most important question to you guys is whether trading at a prop firm is a pie in the sky plan with little chance of success, or whether I have a good chance of making some graduate level cash in my first year i.e. >£25,000

Thanks in advance for any help and advice you can give, it is very much appreciated.

Click to expand...

Have you any trading experience what so ever? a degree in economics has very little relevance to making money directly trading the markets...

trading is a profession in and of itself, I cannot understand how a degree will help you in any sort of way if you decide to take the trading route......

the chances of you making 25 grand in your first year trading are probably 99.99999% against you...you will be very luck to break even...at best again the odds are heavily stacked against you in this scenario also....most probably you will be taking losses and will not even survive a year with the firm. if you even get a chance to join any firm as a backed trader, you will be extreamly lucky for the opportunity and will cost you.

I think your best bet is to try and get into an area of work which will allow you to employ the scholastic skills directly obtained from studying economics..unfortunately it is my strong belief that they are not suited to trading economist make terrible traders....to trade markets you need to build skills which will allow you to further develop the necessary skills in order to be successful. these skills cannot be obtained from any degree or other profession outside of this alien arena. you need to build skills to build skills

it is my opinion only that, yes this is a pie in the sky plan, brutal maybe but your choice of phrase answered honestly.

I appreciate the honest reply.

I do actually have a little trading experience. When I was 15 I persuaded my Dad to open up a forex account and I lost about £300 in 2 weeks. Since then I have been obsessed by the markets, paper trading EUR/USD on Oanda making about 10% a year (I know its crap but its a start). Although for the past 2 years I have been severely distracted by girls and university in general. A lecture on pricing options the other week re-sparked my interest in the markets, and since I do not want to rush into a boring accountants job with E&Y or PWC I am thinking out my career plan.

Again, thanks for the honesty, it would be no good if you tailored your answers to what I want to hear! Btw, I completely appreciate the sentiments towards academic knowledge. I have never experienced such BS as what has been taught to me at uni. I can't remember who said it, but it is true that to survive a modern education with your mind intact is some feat.

If you have to ask the question you would not understand the answer .

Students need to focus on their careers at university and not getting wasted, gap years and playing games at tax payers cost.

If you don't know the direction of your career after 15+ years in education then what hope have you got in trying to find it in a site like this.

Polyphonic,

Unless you're preocuppied with 'status' (and, honestly, who gives a shti?) there is career potential beyond the likes Deutsche Bank, Paribas, etc. Try the small brokers. How many are there? Loads. Look at memebers' lists for Eurex, LIFFE, etc.

In the meantime, study for a few Securities Institute exams. And importantly, don't give up or despair. Persistance is the key. Good luck.

http://www.sii.org.uk/web5/infopool.nsf/HTML/qQualifications?OpenDocument

Grant.

Pete007 said:

If you have to ask the question you would not understand the answer .

Click to expand...

Thanks for that pearl of wisdom. Really helpful that is.

Pete007 said:

Students need to focus on their careers at university and not getting wasted, gap years and playing games at tax payers cost.

Click to expand...

Playing games at tax payers cost? Oh you mean the money that I have earned every bloody summer by hard graft! Or do you mean the student loan money that I have to pay back myself? Or do you mean the tuition fees that are partly government funded, and for which I will be paying back in the form of tax, not to mention paying for all of the old people's pensions in tax. We have an ageing population; it is the younger generation who will be paying for this.

My generation will work harder, pay more in tax, be more in debt than any previous generation. Please don't patronise me.

Pete007 said:

If you don't know the direction of your career after 15+ years in education then what hope have you got in trying to find it in a site like this.

Click to expand...

I've got no hope in asking you for advice thats for sure.

Listen I apologise if I come across as naive, but your post was absolutely the opposite of what constructive criticism should be. If you don't want to constructively criticise and just want to slate me then don't bother and get a life instead please.

grantx said:

Polyphonic,

Unless you're preocuppied with 'status' (and, honestly, who gives a shti?) there is career potential beyond the likes Deutsche Bank, Paribas, etc. Try the small brokers. How many are there? Loads. Look at memebers' lists for Eurex, LIFFE, etc.

In the meantime, study for a few Securities Institute exams. And importantly, don't give up or despair. Persistance is the key. Good luck.

http://www.sii.org.uk/web5/infopool.nsf/HTML/qQualifications?OpenDocument

Grant.

Click to expand...

Cheers mate. I will look into the smaller companies. Much appreciated.

polyphonic456 said:

I appreciate the honest reply.

I do actually have a little trading experience. When I was 15 I persuaded my Dad to open up a forex account and I lost about £300 in 2 weeks. Since then I have been obsessed by the markets, paper trading EUR/USD on Oanda making about 10% a year (I know its crap but its a start).

Click to expand...

This is a fantastic start, at least you have done something off of your own back to make head way into this area of work, that should speak lots about you..

Ok now I believe what you should be doing is to open an account with real money...and see if you can still manage to generate this sort of return, it should be better than leaving it in a savings account at the bank if you are confident you can make at least 10% over the year.

if you still want to take the trading route after a year of trading your own money, your broker account statements will act as your CV!!! and will be more valuable than an economics degree, although all will bolster your chances.

good luck, however if you want to be trading for a living you should try and aim to make 10% a week and with conservative risk this is possible, although not easy, dont listen to anyone that tells you its not possible because it is, people often forget why they got into it in the first place, and I bet it wasnt because they read they should only expect to make 10% a year. this is garbage, you can make about 9% a day if you trade on 3% risk with a 1:3 risk reward ratio. and this is being conservative. its all in the mind and what you want to believe.

regards

Polyphonic,

I think your attitude is spot on mate. Ignore the miserable, elitist old ****es that tell you your degree is useless and you're sponging off tax payers. Maybe your degree isn't directly applicable to trading (perhaps Physics or even Psychology is more fitting) but you can bet your **** that having a good understanding of global economies and macro trends will already have put you a few steps ahead of your average schmo.

Unfortunately trading is an incredibly difficult and competitive are to move into if you're looking to be backed/paid to do it. I'd advise you sit the SII's introductory papers (certificate in securities & derivatives probably best) and start trading your own account (even if it's just a few hundred quid). You're gonna have to put as much time and effort into this as possible, but building a credible trading record will at least give some evidence that this is something you can do. Trading (though most Traders won't have you believe it) is something that nearly any reasonably bright and persistent person can grasp, if they're prepared to take the time to learn (and can afford to lose a few quid) IMO. Just work your balls off and be prepared to lose.

I'd approach some of the smaller futures firms such as Mako, Futex etc as they have supposedly good graduate schemes and won't sneer at you like some of these old misers.

Best of luck, let us know how you get on.


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polyphonic456 said:

Hey everyone,

I am about to graduate with a 2:1 in Economics from Lancaster University. A few questions:

• Is this good enough to get a job with an investment bank assuming my CV is packed with extracurricular stuff etc?
  
• If not (as I suspect) then how easy is it to get a job with a prop firm as a fresh graduate?
  
• Are prop firms a valid career option for a new graduate? i.e. Is there a good chance of making money after the initial trading?
  
• Does trading experience with a prop firm look good if later applying to investment banks?
  
• Assuming that you don't get paid during the 3 month training period (is this true?), does that mean you need to come into it with some serious capital behind you to fund a) training and b) initial losses after training?

In essence, my most important question to you guys is whether trading at a prop firm is a pie in the sky plan with little chance of success, or whether I have a good chance of making some graduate level cash in my first year i.e. >£25,000

Thanks in advance for any help and advice you can give, it is very much appreciated.

Click to expand...

Good luck

If you have an understanding of trading and you really want to do it then (imo) you will.

The fact that you have a good degree pass tells firms two things:
1. you are reasonably intelligent
2. you're disciplined enough to be teachable

Send your CV off to every finance recruiter in the city and get cracking. Weeks of relentless interviewing alone in a big city will test your convictions. Careful what you wish for though, most fortune 500 city jobs will turn your ass and your brain to porridge

Best of luck

my opinion as someone who has worked for an IB and as a prop trader is dont bother going to an arcade.

You dont get paid, the odds say you wont make money, they give you no transferrable skills and when you leave you'll end up having to go back to being in the back office job in a bank anyway.

You are much better off trying to get into a small bank like the ANZ's/HBOSTS'/RBC's of this world. At least you will be in a stable job, they will pay for you to do any exams and its much better to have them on your cv than any arcade.

If you are going to do the arcade thing then just expect to make money for at least a year and then if you do after that...you are one of very few who do so stick with it!

some good advice on here, esp. last couple of posts.

To be honest with a 2:1 in Economics I wouldn't give up yet on getting a place with one of the big IB's if you have something that will make your application stand-out. First-team sports at uni or similar should help. If you put a bit of time and thought into the applications and covering letters, something that will stand out to the junior HR person who will be given the job of sifting through the 1000's of applications. A lot comes down to how persistent you are.