'No indicators' revisited

This is a discussion on 'No indicators' revisited within the Technical Analysis forums, part of the Methods category; Bramble You mention market makers. There are many markets where market makers do'nt operate and many electronic markets that have ...

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Old Jul 6, 2004, 11:48am   #961
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Bramble

You mention market makers.

There are many markets where market makers do'nt operate and many electronic markets that have designated mm's who's only function appears to be getting the contract going at the opening. I think all the talk of manipulation / mm's when analysing markets is useless ........................ unless one is doing what Naz does in real time
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 12:32pm   #962
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Graphic representation to elaborate on Brambles post.

First one is the parabolic rise/fall.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 12:45pm   #963
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I think indicators are actually the exact opposite of information overload. They actually highlight the most important bits of information. The human brain needs to have things pointed out, highlighted categorised. Its how it works.. you just give it a helping hand.

Where is the price in relation to its average? Has the change per day dropped or increased? Does the volume tend to go in the movement of the trend or opposite? Indicators are vital... and I feel if you try and trade without them. You are just going to make things difficult for yourself.

But if that is the way you want it. I just dont see the point of delibrately denying yourself aids that have been proven to be a big benefit in chart analysis.

I get a feeling this isn't a thread for debate or giving opinions that dont agree with having 'no indicators'... so I'll leave you to it and start my own.

And by the way... yes I did have to state what I stated in my last post! Im unclear of the rules of some threads and didn't want to get banned. This thread has been mentioned in the sacrosanct 'basement' thread... that people who want to debate and have opinions should leave this thread alone. But I wasn't too sure if this still held... so I asked to make sure?
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 12:53pm   #964
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Volume Fade reversal. I look out for these after gaps or very quick moves. Also important to watch volume after the fade.

Wrt to indicators, if you find them of use then great. If not, don't use them....its as simple as that.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 1:05pm   #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finirama
Graphic representation to elaborate on Brambles post.

First one is the parabolic rise/fall.
Which kind of kills one of my hypotheses - "The descending parabolic volume indicates lack of support for current trend".

In this chart, the Ascending parabolic volume ushers in the fall in price and continues to fall in price in the parabolic volume descent as well. Back to the drawing board!
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 1:09pm   #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qaza
There are many markets where market makers do'nt operate and many electronic markets that have designated mm's who's only function appears to be getting the contract going at the opening. I think all the talk of manipulation / mm's when analysing markets is useless ........................ unless one is doing what Naz does in real time
I guess my use of the term was a little 'narrow'.

My meaning was for any BIG market player that had the muscle to move the market and/or the mechanics and wherewithal to do so. As opposed to little retailers.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 1:15pm   #967
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Bramble,

Look at the chart again and then re-read your last post!!

Then look at what happen after the parabolic volume descent.........you may find that have got it right!!!
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 1:21pm   #968
 
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pkfryer.
I would tend to agree with you regarding indicators to some extent.
I now concentrate mainly on the analysis of price and volume but when it comes to entering a trade I do make limited use of just one indicator which does help me to decide whether my analysis of price and volume is sound.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 1:24pm   #969
 
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You also need to consider that on Finirama's first chart, those parabolic rise/falls, as you call them, happen over the close of one day and the open of the next.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 1:33pm   #970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finirama
Bramble,

Look at the chart again and then re-read your last post!!

Then look at what happen after the parabolic volume descent.........you may find that have got it right!!!
Fin, take your point.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 1:34pm   #971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skimbleshanks
You also need to consider that on Finirama's first chart, those parabolic rise/falls, as you call them, happen over the close of one day and the open of the next.
Skim, I can't make out the white on grey timescale. How can you see it so clearly. And please, no carrot jokes!

Edit:- with the timescale now clear (thanks Fin) what is it that I need to be considering about the parabolic volume rise/fall occurring over end/start of 2 market sessions?

Last edited by TheBramble; Jul 6, 2004 at 2:13pm. Reason: Timescale made clear
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 1:40pm   #972
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Bramble,

There should be a little box on the bottom right hand of the chart pop-out which expands the chart to full size.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 3:12pm   #973
 
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Here's one that worked well amongst the many that don't.
EDIT: GOT CHARTS IN WRONG ORDER OPEN 3,1,2
Chart 1

If you'd been swing trading Logica you might have been closed out of your long when the price breached the swing low, then gone short on the first reaction swing high only to have been stopped out when the price rose above it.

Volume was extremely high on stopout day and could be viewed as a buying climax with with a lot of supply coming in. The next day price edged higher but fell back to form a doji although on lower volume. All this was occuring only just above the Nov highs so it might have tempted you to re-instate your short with a stop just above the doji high.

Chart 2

If you had been tempted you'd have been right but after a few days there was even higher volume and maybe a selling climax already. It didn't seem to follow through, but probably wise to move stop down in case. Then another swing high (red line) and a repeat sell signal.

Chart 3

All goes well then very high volume again and a selling climax? No follow through though and although supply seemed to have shrunk no strong demand apparent. Cover and run!!

In accumulation phase since then?

Pretty rudimentary use of volume - any analysis from the experts?
Attached Thumbnails
log1.gif   log2.gif   log3.gif  


Last edited by barjon; Jul 6, 2004 at 3:45pm.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 4:05pm   #974
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkfryer
I was thinking about no indicators... and want to throw something into the wash!

An indicator is often or not created from the open,high,low,close and/or volume. Nothing in an indicator can't be seen by looking at a plane chart anyway. But they underline and highlight specific aspects.

Like OBV... underlines where volume is in relation to price movement and actually shows you something you would never see by just the raw data alone. Various other indicators just highlight rate of price change, change in relation to recent high and lows... highlight trends that can be muddied with the random noise.

Surely by cutting out indicators you are actually just making it harder on yourself to interpret a chart? Indicators are directly derived from that data anyway! Any differences between just using price/volume and using indicators as well... is actually an artificial one. You make life harder on yourself.

Heard of information overload? So much information that you can't interpret it... but when it is clarified, filtered, categorised, and highlighted... you actually aid the brain in interpreting that data. Filtering, pre-processing of information doesn't actually lose anything, it merely helps us from miss something important!

I apologise if this has been brought up and discussed before... Im new to the thread but have been meaning to post my view for a while. I presume this is no longer holy ground now the threads are split and anyone can come in and discuss things related to the subject. Is this a freedom of speech and thought zone now?

Ignoring the last paragraph....yes this has been discussed before. Indicators are said to be akin to using stabilisors on a bicycle until you become skilled and practiced enough to ride without them.Indicators are always living in the past.
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....Indicators show the past. Price Action "Indicates" the future.
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Old Jul 6, 2004, 4:19pm   #975
 
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Barjon

No expert but I see the three charts in terms of channels and breakouts
See red lines on your charts in attached .doc

Red line in last chart should be on 173.75 level with the high vol spike last bears covering (or attempted breakout or both) & beginning of accumulation (consolidation) (20/20 hindsight ) but I did cover up the RH side of the charts as I went along
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File Type: doc barjon .doc (514.0 KB, 253 views)
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Last edited by Rognvald; Jul 6, 2004 at 4:42pm. Reason: Red line moved
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