Conventional and unconventional chart pattern

charcoalstick

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There are a abundent of TA books on coonventional chart pattern.
Do these patterns really work?

Are there any UNCONVENTIONAL patterns that truely work?
 
charcoalstick said:
There are a abundent of TA books on coonventional chart pattern.
Do these patterns really work?

Are there any UNCONVENTIONAL patterns that truely work?


Hi,

Chart patterns are just a form of setup.

The tried-and-tested ones like double tops/bottoms and trendline breaks can prove to be good setups which are based on sound principles.

However, keep in mind that your chart pattern setup is just a small part of your strategy. After you've found a chart pattern, you then have to consider your entry point, your position size, your stop-loss point, and your exit point(s).

It is how you manage your trade after you've found your setup that will determine your success or failure as a trader over the long term.


Thanks

Damian
 
charcoalstick said:
There are a abundent of TA books on coonventional chart pattern.
Do these patterns really work?

Are there any UNCONVENTIONAL patterns that truely work?

It is funny but most of them don't, or even all of them don't depending on how exactly you use them.

You have to keep in mind the fact that you can introduce hundreds of your own patterns and pretend that they work and no one will ever prove or disprove it. That's trading business
:eek:
 
egro1egro said:
It is funny but most of them don't, or even all of them don't depending on how exactly you use them.

You have to keep in mind the fact that you can introduce hundreds of your own patterns and pretend that they work and no one will ever prove or disprove it. That's trading business
:eek:

Before I bump into this forum, somehow I used to think of TA is about chart patterns and indicators, most probably this impression is formed and influenced by the abundance of charting and indicator books everywhere, though patterns and indicators are actually derived from price.hah
 
charcoalstick said:
Before I bump into this forum, somehow I used to think of TA is about chart patterns and indicators, most probably this impression is formed and influenced by the abundance of charting and indicator books everywhere, though patterns and indicators are actually derived from price.hah

TA is about applying some math tranformations and then using them to conclude in a scientific-like manner where the price is most likely to go. The key word is "scientific" because there are many ways to look at price and not all of them are about precise judgement. So, nowdays everybody who derives anything from price can be called technical analyst, but that is not right. It is like calling a card player a mathematician in probability theory area which would be very misleading.

TA is a pseudo-science like alchemistry or astrology since none of the postulates can be possibly verified. Any author can give an authoritative opinion that a falling wedge/pennant/flag is more bullish than bearish and even bring some statistics to support the case. And yet there are thousands of ways to draw/recognise wedge/pennant/flags and billion ways of trading them. Which way does this statistics apply to is always very unclear...

William O'Neil in his book tells in one place how many of the modern patterns have come about. According to him, a journalist (not a trader) coined them in 1920s and then many authors kept repeating them on and on through 20th century. From O'Neil experience only a small fraction of these patterns really worked for him. He also critised some other TA notions (like overbought/oversold levels etc.). And he is not the only one who critisised TA. Yet many people would argue that looking at price in any way is TA. They tell that candle or bar chart are already moving averages with period 1 :confused:
 
egro1egro said:
TA is about applying some math tranformations and then using them to conclude in a scientific-like manner where the price is most likely to go. The key word is "scientific" because there are many ways to look at price and not all of them are about precise judgement. So, nowdays everybody who derives anything from price can be called technical analyst, but that is not right. It is like calling a card player a mathematician in probability theory area which would be very misleading.

TA is a pseudo-science like alchemistry or astrology since none of the postulates can be possibly verified. Any author can give an authoritative opinion that a falling wedge/pennant/flag is more bullish than bearish and even bring some statistics to support the case. And yet there are thousands of ways to draw/recognise wedge/pennant/flags and billion ways of trading them. Which way does this statistics apply to is always very unclear...

William O'Neil in his book tells in one place how many of the modern patterns have come about. According to him, a journalist (not a trader) coined them in 1920s and then many authors kept repeating them on and on through 20th century. From O'Neil experience only a small fraction of these patterns really worked for him. He also critised some other TA notions (like overbought/oversold levels etc.). And he is not the only one who critisised TA. Yet many people would argue that looking at price in any way is TA. They tell that candle or bar chart are already moving averages with period 1 :confused:

Actually, that's not what TA is about at all, or at least not what it was about at the beginning. TA began as an alternative to FA and focused on price and price movement rather than on balance sheets and "value". Put simply, FA couldn't care less what the price is. TA couldn't care less what the balance sheet looks like.

All the indicator and pattern and formula stuff came later. Much later. Probably in an effort to make TA "scientific" and legitimate. But if one ignores trader behavior when evaluating price movement, he is more likely to be incorrect in his analysis since it is behavior which moves price in the first place.

Therefore, focus on behavior when analyzing price movement and set aside the patterns and indicators and formulas and candles and so forth and you will be more likely to reach an understanding of what price is doing. See, for example, the "reversals" post I recently made to the S&R thread (below).

Db
 
dbphoenix said:
Therefore, focus on behavior when analyzing price movement and set aside the patterns and indicators and formulas and candles and so forth and you will be more likely to reach an understanding of what price is doing. See, for example, the "reversals" post I recently made to the S&R thread (below).

Db

Yes, but would you call "analysing behavior" as TA?

In my view, TA is about superficial and formal analysis of what the behavior is hidden beneath. Wyckoff repeatedly opposed to people trying to concieve a system with some formal and precise rules about how to trade with a chart. Although Wyckoff looked at price/volume alone when daytrading (so, it is not FA)

Also, Livermore always told "price tells us all". So, you would call him technical analyst, although he could hardly call himself as technical analyst or fundamentalist, or even a chartist.

That is why I am saying that TA is more about trying to formalise price analysis and represent trading like a science. In the same way as musicians learn harmony or polyphony as a formal science but then anyway treat their profession as an art. And in case of music the usefullness of these sciences is evident, whereas in trading I simply cannot judge merits of TA - I just cannot measure or check anything.

The point I am trying to make is that the term TA probably appeared and settled much later (in second half of 20th century). And everybody who trades on price action shouldn't be called technical analyst. But now TA has amalgamated so much that too many confusions arise.
 
egro1egro said:
Yes, but would you call "analysing behavior" as TA?

In my view, TA is about superficial and formal analysis of what the behavior is hidden beneath. Wyckoff repeatedly opposed to people trying to concieve a system with some formal and precise rules about how to trade with a chart. Although Wyckoff looked at price/volume alone when daytrading (so, it is not FA)

Also, Livermore always told "price tells us all". So, you would call him technical analyst, although he could hardly call himself as technical analyst or fundamentalist, or even a chartist.

That is why I am saying that TA is more about trying to formalise price analysis and represent trading like a science. In the same way as musicians learn harmony or polyphony as a formal science but then anyway treat their profession as an art. And in case of music the usefullness of these sciences is evident, whereas in trading I simply cannot judge merits of TA - I just cannot measure or check anything.

The point I am trying to make is that the term TA probably appeared and settled much later (in second half of 20th century). And everybody who trades on price action shouldn't be called technical analyst. But now TA has amalgamated so much that too many confusions arise.

Saying that TA is about science does not make it so. TA began as an analysis of price movement and predated charts. But TA has come to mean a great deal more than that, which is why the question "does TA work" is meaningless.

If one wants to fiddle with indicators and patterns, that's fine. But unless the work conveys an understanding of trader behavior, it is not likely to achieve the desired result.

Db
 
dbphoenix said:
Saying that TA is about science does not make it so. TA began as an analysis of price movement and predated charts. But TA has come to mean a great deal more than that, which is why the question "does TA work" is meaningless.

If one wants to fiddle with indicators and patterns, that's fine. But unless the work conveys an understanding of trader behavior, it is not likely to achieve the desired result.

Db

Absolutely agree on the last sentence.

But the question I raised: do you call "understanding of trader behavior" a TA? It is all about terminology actually.

But when it comes to terminology it suddenly appears that many important points in modern TA are missing or changed. Instead of accumulation/distribution you have A/D indicator. Instead of pivot points as local maximums you have S1, R1 etc.. Instead of "trading as an art" we have "trading as a science".
 
egro1egro said:
Absolutely agree on the last sentence.

But the question I raised: do you call "understanding of trader behavior" a TA? It is all about terminology actually.

But when it comes to terminology it suddenly appears that many important points in modern TA are missing or changed. Instead of accumulation/distribution you have A/D indicator. Instead of pivot points as local maximums you have S1, R1 etc.. Instead of "trading as an art" we have "trading as a science".

Since traders move price, and TA is the analysis of price movement, then TA is also the study of trader behavior.
 
dbphoenix said:
Since traders move price, and TA is the analysis of price movement, then TA is also the study of trader behavior.
Although I don't really recall seeing it phrased this way, after years of reading books and studying charts, I consider TA to be a graphical presentation of the psychology representing the participants in a stock / mkt / etc... fwiw ...
Ron
 
I am a very technical forex and futures trader. My bread and butter trades center around "chart patterns". The best authors are Magee, Bulkowski, Murphy and lately Igrok for forex.

I think a main point that needs to be made about trading chart patterns profitable is that you have to stay one step ahead of the typical market participant. Since the late 90's everybody knows the typical chart patterns. So the way to trade these patterns is to trade the pattern failure.

The big boys can tell when price is shaping up to a percieved regular chart pattern. They will then come in heavy to buy/sell into the stops and run it through the support/ressistance created by people placing orders in advance of a pattern.

So what a smart trader does- anticipate that the pattern has a potential to go either way and be ready to trade the pattern breakdown. These are some of the best moves you can trade. Thr highest probability ttrades you can make if you are ready. Recent TA authors are starting to talk about these patterns that are now developing.

It is like this in any game. The most prepared and up to date- have the best chance of profiting!

Another point is that I consider price to be more represented by the auction process rather supply/demand. How can price start developing more demand when the price moves higher? According to supply/demand the demand should decrease as supply increases- but when a trend starts the more price takes off- the more people come in to buy.

Just though I would put my two cents in because I trade chart patterns profitably all day.

TY,

MRIPPY
 
I thought I had better do 'something special' for my 23rd post!

Two excellent posts. Mrippy has identified two, highly significant contemporary issues relating to successfully trading the financial markets. And JoulesMM1 has (although he subsequently removed his post) hinted at what we might want to consider is going on beneath the apparent superficiality of open price action and volume.

I’m going to jumble up the points from these two excellent posts in my response as they probably work out better that way if I do and I’ll deal with the relevant issues from both at the same time, as we go along.

It occurs to me that there is a danger of going too deeply into the wrong psychology of ‘the markets’: Which psychology do we want to really understand: The Winners or the Losers?

It’s fashionable to consider the burgeoning group of retail traders as a single block, a single entity, almost as a single institutional force. But this is a totally erroneous treatment in my view. Institutional and real money trading has a single focus, albeit potentially on a number of levels and over a number of timeframes, but a focused intent. This is all in addition to a significantly more attractive trade cost basis, greater market experience and trading expertise along with, for institutional and pro shops, a corporately nurtured development of personal will and personal ability to act.

By contract, the block of retail traders as you might imagine, encompass the entire spectrum of foci and random, if any, intent. Trading costs are for the majority, the most significant factor in their outright positions and actual position sizes. Very often however, it isn’t, and those that perish merely make way for more of the same and the net result to the flow of money to us from the rest of the crowd is the same. Cost of trading for retail traders is significant to the extent that it does or should determine the ‘if’ and the ‘when’ for both entry and exit - this is simply not the case for professional biased trading. Other factors entirely are involved.

When we consider the experience and expertise of retail traders as a whole you will find you have a genuine bell curve. And that isn’t to say roughly half will be thinking long and roughly half short. My hunch, developed over some years now in professional trading and with reasonable exposure to retail guys and girls is that perhaps 97% of these retail traders are clustered round the median and really, genuinely have no idea what to do next. They really don’t know how to find which instruments to trade, what markets to look at, what the bigger picture is for currencies and bonds and the impact of interest rates to money flow and where we are in the various economic cycles (Kondratieff, Kuznets, Kitchin and Juglar etc.). The majority see trading as some kind of a roulette wheel in which you either pick red or black, long or short. Absolutely no idea how much information and effort they need to layer in to make a good trading pastry. Nor where to look. And based on limited but very real personal experience, if they are made aware, they are not prepared to put in and sustain the ‘additional’ effort to achieve a higher probability hit rate. And a higher profitability entry and exit point. And more accurate targets. They are happier and more comfortable just waiting for a sign, a signal – from someone or somewhere else. Comfort in the crowd - which is of course what creates the crowd. But the crowd are not self directed, not at all. They are led for purposes of which you are probably already aware, but perhaps not yet how or why. Supply/Demand is a red herring and useful only for Economy-101 and for misdirecting those traders who believe they can plug all that old hat theory into modern-day market dynamics and come up with the right answer. Wrong. And I would caution you against putting too much store in assuming the ‘smart traders’ that are ready for a price pattern to form or fail are deliberately manipulating the price structure to cause it to do so. There are simply too many interests and too much at stake and it’s all moving too quickly across too many linked and inter-related markets to make the game of watching what everybody else is doing to form a view on what to do yourself while giving the impression of doing something different or nothing at all, to make it a feasible option. It simply doesn’t work that way because it can’t work that way. The timeframe we choose to trade determines what we see and how we act and you have to consider that is true for every active player in the market at all times. Some would say it’s harder to screw up in the longer timeframes than the shorter. Bear in mind which timeframe the real money is trading at all times. May I live so long.

Which brings us to will and the unrestricted ability to act.

Few retail traders I have met personally posses the same frame of mind when taking or exiting a position that a professional has. It’s analogous with the feast and famine cycle of serial dieters. They’ll unnaturally withhold and then equally unhealthily, binge. Many non-pro traders do something similar. They’ll freeze, waiting for just that one more piece of confirmation or they simply fail to pull the trigger and rationalize their ‘decision’ on the basis that it can’t hurt you not being in the market. It can. You can’t make profits by not being in the market all the time. Sure there are times not to be in the market, but that’s a positive decision – not an excuse for inaction. But when you’ve done your analyses and you’ve got the qualifying confirmations, whatever they are for your methodology, you go. You act. This is what pro traders do, without a second thought. One caveat here. This applies to most pro traders most of the time. As do my comments on retails traders, most of them, most of the time. My take on those retail traders I have watched trade is that the opposite is true they do not have the courage of their convictions or the will to act. On a missed or passed over entry it is ‘only’ an opportunity loss. When they hash the exit it’s an actually realized financial loss. That’s the famine side. The feast is when they hit every thing that even looks like it’s even just half alive and hit it with twice normal position size just to ‘claw back’ previous losses. Random, knee-jerk actions and unrelated position sizing, risk assessment, if any, and sweaty palmed seat of the pants watching every tick – from the very start of your 3-day swing trade, which lasts 35 minutes before you exit at ten times your pre-calculated loss just in time to see it swing back in your originally anticipated direction.

Unrestricted ability to act is what you get when you don’t have emotional blockages in the form of negative emotions such as fear, anxiety, doubt, greed, pressure, physical or mental tension, inappropriate physical environment, lack of focus, lack of information or low self-esteem. The degree to which you get unrestricted ability to act is precisely positively correlated with the degree to which you do not have any of those blockages. Or negatively correlated with the degree to which you do, if you don’t like processing negatives. The balance is potentially a little more even in this area as pro traders are human, most of us anyway, most of the time – and we get hit by the same personal and global issues the retail side does. But this is where the weight of experience, expertise and focus helps us reduce those factors which would otherwise similarly shackle us from time to time too. I guess the real trick it to get all your experience and expertise as a pro and then go retail. LOL.

Getting to the point from mrippy where he suggests price auction is more important than supply/demand it might help if I illustrated this concept by use of a non-trading parallel. I’m going to the trouble of doing this as it is such a vital aspect to be considered and it’s nice sometimes to read a story that hasn’t got anything at all to do with trading.

You want to sell some eggs, chicken eggs. Where do you go? Farmers’ market? Where all the other farmers are also selling eggs. Makes a lot of sense as people who are in the market for eggs will naturally enough be heading off to the market and you’ve got a reasonable degree of confidence in your success that the buyers for your product are going to be there. There is going to be a great deal of supply available to those buyers. You don’t know how many buyers are in the market for how many eggs. You do know you’re not the only one selling eggs and you don’t know just how many eggs the other sellers of eggs want to sell. Some buyers will have constraints and restrictions on when they must buy their eggs or how much they want to spend – others will not – they just want eggs – now. You have no idea how much other sellers of eggs will change their offer in the light of what they might perceive as the changing ‘needs’ of the current field of buyers. All you can gauge is the rate at which your eggs are being taken up. You can adopt different strategies such as waiting until late in the day and they start to lower your prices to unload more of your stock. Or you can plan on keeping the price where it is and take your stock back home with you – try again tomorrow. Or you can find out who is offering out lowest and undercut them – all day, every day. Or find the buyers that are constrained, those that simply have to buy right now regardless of price. The other sellers of eggs may or may not be doing all of this to greater or lesser extent too. You don’t know, but you can make a guess. And over time, if you use the same market, you’ll get pretty shrewd in assessing the other players and the buyers.

Of course, you can always set up your own market and sell your eggs where nobody else is currently selling eggs. You wont have any competition, for the moment, and you’ll not find as many people who pass your pitch will be in the market for what you want to sell, but the premium in your price may or may not offset that. Particularly if you have a high volume of traffic passing your way.

Another way to sell your eggs is to wait until there aren’t many around anywhere. A natural or perceived shortage and then you can go to market with a grade AAA price tag and be reasonably sure of juggling that figure all day long, plus or minus a few cents just to keep the interest up.

I’m not going to go through an example from the Buy side as I’ve already spent too much of your time.

Supply and Demand do not in and of themselves lead to less or greater volume or any transactions at all, it is the perceived need to buy and the willingness to agree a sale price that determines the degree of action that transpires. The auction. It is an understanding of the fundamentals of this auction that will determine the degree of success you have in trading the markets.
 
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It is funny but most of them don't, or even all of them don't depending on how exactly you use them.

You have to keep in mind the fact that you can introduce hundreds of your own patterns and pretend that they work and no one will ever prove or disprove it. That's trading business
:eek:
Chart patterns work, and work pretty much perfectly. If you don't find that they work, you're not trading them correctly. It's not just about the pattern either, it's also about the things damian mentioned.
 
Chart patterns work, and work pretty much perfectly. If you don't find that they work, you're not trading them correctly. It's not just about the pattern either, it's also about the things damian mentioned.

The statement "a certain chart pattern work" is meaningless. When two people say that they use cup&handle pattern and it works for them they do actually open different positions (even, perhaps, in opposite directions) at different times and close them in different manners. Then what does it mean: "it works"? May be it's the two traders who work - not the patterns?

A certain pattern might work on a certain time-frame/instrument in a certain set of trading rules and even then it can be recognised by different traders differently. Or it can preclude an upmove in 65% of cases provided that you leave exactly twice the future profit of a room for a possible retracement which actually means that the pattern doesn't work or does it?
 
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