It's so unfair...shut the (expletive deleted) up!

Livermore was right. There is nothing new in Wall Street.

You moan about how unfair spread betting firms are. They really don't seem any different to the bucket shops in Jesses day.

There is a passage at the beginning of "Reminiscences" where Livermore explains how the bucket shops handicapped him because he won consistently.

They made him put up three times more margin than everyone else and in addition made him pay an ever increasing premium (spread):

But when the Cosmopolitan tacked on that premium they were hitting below the belt. It meant that if the price was 90 when I bought, instead of making my ticket: "Bot Steel at 90 1/8" it read: "Bot Steel at 91 1/18" Why, that stock could advance a point and a quarter after I bought it and I'd still be losing money if I closed the trade. And by insisting that I put up a three-point margin at the very start they reduced my trading capacity by two thirds. Still, that was the only bucket shop that would take my business at all, and I had to accept their terms or quit trading.

And that was only one example of the tricks they played on him. Others including seeing which way their customers were placed and then deliberately driving the price up or down to shake them all out.

But again, Livermore realised that rather than b*tchin' about how unfair it was he either had to change his style of trading or go somewhere else (he later did both).

Spread betting firms might play "unfair" (this is debatable) from time to time but then again, why don't you try your hand in the real market if you want fairness??

The direct market where you don't get a broker holding your hand with guaranteed stops incase you lose more than you have in your account.

The direct market where you have to put up some serious margin to take a position rather than £40 or the other minimal amounts SB firms require as margin.

The direct market where minimum "bet" size is defined by CONTRACTS and not by how much you WANT to bet.

The direct market which can also close at times of news just like you keep moaning your SB broker does. Take the EuroStoxx. I've seen that market white box many a time, meaning you cannot come out of your position and ringing up to plead with your broker makes not the slightest bit of difference.

Or the direct market where you don't get a fixed spread to trade off. Where you are long GBP/USD before Non Farms and although the price hasn't moved, the best price you can get out at is 40 pips lower because no one is bidding right before the number.

Unfortunately, all those people that moan day in and day out about their SB firms haven't realised that the grass is not greener on the other side. You change to the direct market and it doesn't get any fairer.

So why don't you all just give it a rest?

If the firm tries to screw with you, you adapt your game plan to still be able to beat them.

And if you can't do it, go somewhere else.

No one is out there to line your pockets with money. And nothing is "fair" in life. This is a f*cking battle with some of the quickest, sharpest, most intelligent, well informed, stubbornly irrational (and in many cases unethical) minds in the world.

If you can't take the heat, go back to your 9-5.

Still SBs need some sort of regulatory supervision. Direct markets have more transparent pricing system.

yes sb firms can make it difficuilt, but no more difficuilt than trading real contracts. i had a nice suprise the other day, was long gold over night woke up pulled up the charts to find it had gone threw my stop by about a $ on globex, then logged into IG to find it missed my stop by 2$, so not all bad

Genics said:

yes sb firms can make it difficuilt, but no more difficuilt than trading real contracts. i had a nice suprise the other day, was long gold over night woke up pulled up the charts to find it had gone threw my stop by about a $ on globex, then logged into IG to find it missed my stop by 2$, so not all bad

Click to expand...

that's exactly the reason why they need transparency. IG might have spared you but capital spreads or finspreads might have quoted at different prices.

trader_dante said:

No one is out there to line your pockets with money. And nothing is "fair" in life. This is a f*cking battle with some of the quickest, sharpest, most intelligent, well informed, stubbornly irrational (and in many cases unethical) minds in the world.

If you can't take the heat, go back to your 9-5.

Click to expand...

TD, I've liked your threads and posts but....

Just because you are (apparently) successful, don't be so arrogant to talkd down on newbies, part-timers and wannabe public.

This kind of 'we know what we are doing' attitude has always created finaicial messes.

what on earth has this got to do with any financial mess?

dante -

watch out. i've been banned before for pointing out the ble*ding obvious. apparently pointing out this type of thing upsets people, especially if they are t2w 'guru's' who have never traded a contract their lives.

anyway, remember, spreadbetting is tax free. so there!

ps, who is that scruffy, unshaven twerp on the cmc markets banner currently advertised below? one of their bust customers.

leovirgo said:

TD, I've liked your threads and posts but....

Just because you are (apparently) successful, don't be so arrogant to talkd down on newbies, part-timers and wannabe public.

This kind of 'we know what we are doing' attitude has always created finaicial messes.

Click to expand...

but common sense would suggest it is the newbies, part-timers and wanabe's that need to understand this in their misguided efforts to get rich quick.

undercapitalisation is one of the biggest reasons for failure in the amateur/non-pro crowd. so, surely charging larger spreads than a commission - ie increasing the cost of trading is the last thing someone who is under capitalised needs right?

im always amazed how public greed and a good marketing campaign wins over logic every time for the 'wanabe'.

I concur with TDs point of view.

More recently, on recommendation from a friend, I've adapted my trading plan by changing 90% of my orders to Entry Orders. I try and avoid placing market orders as a rule.

Advantages of EOs is that they test your point of view and often whether you are long or short enter at your designated and confirmed price with predetermined SLs.

Analyse market on Sunday evening. Set EOs and forget. Review daily. If EO is not met you were wrong in your analysis.

Also, you can place a long and a short EOs at breakout points. Why try and guess the market. With SLs and Limits and daily review of position run with your winners and close EOs that have not been met.


I also do appreciate the criticisms of Spread Betters. I've been on the wrong end of them too. I think most people likely to have had some bad experiences. Some have better trading platforms than others. Horses for courses. Learn and adapt to the system. Evolve into a winning trader.

Finally, remember the market needs losers.


Lifes a beach and then you drown... :cheesy:

charliechan said:

dante -

watch out. i've been banned before for pointing out the ble*ding obvious. apparently pointing out this type of thing upsets people, especially if they are t2w 'guru's' who have never traded a contract their lives.

anyway, remember, spreadbetting is tax free. so there!

ps, who is that scruffy, unshaven twerp on the cmc markets banner currently advertised below? one of their bust customers.

Click to expand...

Not too sure who he is ... but im guessing he has "Cold Feet" about spread betting companies too ..... check the Yellow Pages hes probably in there

charliechan said:

but common sense would suggest it is the newbies, part-timers and wanabe's that need to understand this in their misguided efforts to get rich quick.

undercapitalisation is one of the biggest reasons for failure in the amateur/non-pro crowd. so, surely charging larger spreads than a commission - ie increasing the cost of trading is the last thing someone who is under capitalised needs right?

im always amazed how public greed and a good marketing campaign wins over logic every time for the 'wanabe'.

Click to expand...

I can agree with what you said.

However, I was rather displeased with the use of f word in the title asking people to shut up by someone like TD. I can't believe that the mods have allowed this title. Is it okay with t2w regulations??????????????

Here in this section under Spreadbetting, many people ( presumably) newbies cry out loud about malpractices (perceived or real) of SB firms. They are "consumers" who fall under general public hence needs regulatory protection, unlike Intermediate/professional who do not need level playing field with institutions. Some of the complaints are quite legit.

Last but not least, all the legendary traders have to start somewhere.

love hurts

charliechan said:

but common sense would suggest it is the newbies, part-timers and wanabe's that need to understand this in their misguided efforts to get rich quick.

undercapitalisation is one of the biggest reasons for failure in the amateur/non-pro crowd. so, surely charging larger spreads than a commission - ie increasing the cost of trading is the last thing someone who is under capitalised needs right?

im always amazed how public greed and a good marketing campaign wins over logic every time for the 'wanabe'.

Click to expand...

Agreed - one can imagine the bruised ego's sitting in a dark place sticking pins in TD's wax effigy - yes - thetruth hurts.
More power to your elbow TD:clap:

I see Trader Dante is fast out growing this kindergarten.

The kindergarten where fresh faced lambs gleefully trot to the slaughter then bleat when their delicate throats are cut.

'Bout time somebody tells it how it is....

..far better for newbies to know they are going to be fleeced then slaughtered then cut up into incy tinsy little pieces then their remainders thrown to the hyenas...

disgusted of

Beaconsfield

:cheesy:

Ok, my take on this:

If you are Spreadbetting, and the spread / broker re-quotes / slippage / etc... is having a significant impact on your bottom line, then your timeframes / duration of positions are too short and you should be trading futures - where you will have to deal with spoofs, hi-ticking, slippage, the depth of the market, and so on - but you do have an extra element of control, and the responsibility that comes with it.

If broker re-quotes etc... dont make a difference, then good for you!

I can do without the "trading futures is a Mans game, sonny" spiel: It is, after all, the market that decides where prices are going to go, spreadbetters and futures traders inclusive.

Can't we all just play nicely?

I have no idea what the (expletives deleted (ffs!!)) TD is talking about. If I day trade Fx with capital spreads, I would lose money like night follows day, but not if I trade with Oanda. Capital Spreads are a **** firm. What is so shocking about saying that? You said the bucket shops haven't changed since Livermore's day. Yeah, so? Isn't that what people are saying? Why is this discussion even remotely interesting? We are up against the most intelligent, blah, blah. Yeah, it is such a clever world that you can do it even if you can't pass a maths test. The proof is all around you, no? So give it a rest, TD and stop being too big for your boots.

Brilliant thread TD. I'm so fed up of reading post after post about what a bunch of thieves this or that SB is.

I haven't actually seen one convincing argument or example.

The problem is people expect the SBs to operate exactly like direct access but without the inconvenience of liquidity, contract size etc - that's simply never going to happen.

You have to learn to beat them at their own game instead of complaining when you can't beat them playing your game.

On the other hand, the real (exchange traded) market can't decide the prices you traded off are invalid just because they don't like you winning... at the very least someone needs to bung market services a couple of brown envelopes.

Well said FX - "you must spread some around..."

The crux of this matter is about the cost of doing business:

Spreadbetting: In return for being able to deal at $1 per point tax free, your broker can (and occaisionally will) screw you.

Direct Access: In return for paying tax, you get an anonymous, regulated market you can execute trades on, coupled with minimal counterparty risk.

"you pays your money and you takes your choice".

Hey everyone, I'm sorry if I caused any offence with the title.

And I apologise if I come across as arrogant - It really wasn't my intention. The fact of the matter is I will never be able to get too big for my boots because the market humbles me on a regular basis...

I just keep seeing posts all over T2W complaining about how unfair it is that the SB firm went down during a bit of news or it's so unfair that the spread suddenly widened...or how unfair it is that you traded on a price 600 ticks out from the underlying but the company wouldn't let you keep the profit...this and that...and I am just trying to say that most of these things happen in the real market.

Markets close at the most inopportune times (e.g. Eurex went down during the last surprise interest rate cut) and spreads widen dramatically. I nearly had a heart attack when I started futures trading and saw how thin the Cable ladder gets sometimes for no apparent reason.

As for prices spiking. There have been situations where a fat finger causes a huge blip down...you buy at the lower price...it comes all the way back and you close out for a huge profit...then you find the exchange reverses the trades so you never bought at the lower price and you find yourself suddenly short and massively offside. How is that for fair?

Yes, I know DM is more transparent and perhaps SB firms need better regulating but I also know that it is easy to blame the SB broker when you lose or something inconvenient happens and not take responsibility. There comes a point when you have to stop moaning and do something about it. If you can't make money with Capital Spreads, don't trade with them! If you find that you HAVE to trade with an SB firm but they won't let you win as a scalper, don't scalp!

I really am sorry if I've come across in the wrong way but I just think this is a big boys game and you can't whine when things go wrong, you have to overcome problems by changing game plans or thinking outside the box.

I'm sorry if anyone out there now has a disagreeable opinion of me but being helpful to people only ever got THEM so far. Sometimes you have to give a reality check.

Took a trade with tradefair the other day got stopped out for 58 point win at 9.11 on the usd/chf at 1.0477

Luckily i was using metatrader to see the position as both spikes, which didnt even occur and were in fact minutes ahead of the stop being executed, did not take place on their graph.

I took a snap shot of the screen and after a night of searching for the names of the directors of tradefairs holding company and phone numbers i rang the help desk in the morning expecting to give them some right abuse but unfortunately the phone was answered by a nice sweet girl who couldnt have been more apologetic and quickly got a dealer to reinstate the position but the question is if i hadn't noticed would they have done so ? (the trades still going strong) my guess is NO!