Spreadbetting Companies Want YOU to Lose? Any Thoughts - You Tube Video Link

This is a discussion on Spreadbetting Companies Want YOU to Lose? Any Thoughts - You Tube Video Link within the Spread Betting & CFDs forums, part of the Commercial category; Originally Posted by parthaab Please understand one thing here folks: the issue is NOT about market manipulation. The issue is ...

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Old Aug 28, 2017, 2:45pm   #61
Joined Apr 2016
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Originally Posted by parthaab View Post
Please understand one thing here folks: the issue is NOT about market manipulation.

The issue is of brokers having a vested INTEREST in YOU losing, and the strategy they employ to exploit you. Their gain must mean your loss.

This is the way it works: Heads I win, tails you lose
Nonsense.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 2:48pm   #62
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Please understand one thing here folks: the issue is NOT about market manipulation.

The issue is of brokers having a vested INTEREST in YOU losing, and the strategy they employ to exploit you. Their gain must mean your loss.

This is the way it works: Heads I win, tails you lose

Its neutral to the SB company if I win since for every 1 winner there are 9 losers. Plus they can hedge any really aggressive positions by participating in the market themselves.

However, assuming they make money by charging me a spread on my every trade, if my account is wiped out and I make zero trades next year, they will make zero spread. So how is that good business?

On top of which, every trader whose account is wiped out with SB company ABC may well open an account with SB company XYZ, so ABC have suffered a double loss - loss of revenue stream and loss of market share.

If SB company wanted to simply take my money they could set up a binaries operation registered in some tiny island jurisdiction, accept the deposits and then simply jet off to Brazil.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 3:20pm   #63
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Its neutral to the SB company if I win since for every 1 winner there are 9 losers. Plus they can hedge any really aggressive positions by participating in the market themselves.
How could that be, when they are actually taking your opposite position, betting you will be in the 90% of traders who lose?

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However, assuming they make money by charging me a spread on my every trade, if my account is wiped out and I make zero trades next year, they will make zero spread. So how is that good business?.
If you were a chicken, how would killing you for meat at one go be 'good business'. Its the same thing here. If you win, they lose.

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On top of which, every trader whose account is wiped out with SB company ABC may well open an account with SB company XYZ, so ABC have suffered a double loss - loss of revenue stream and loss of market share.
So what, as long as they dont lose. Do you expect them to lose, ( and keep losing ) in order to retain their customer? That too, a 'bad' one?

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If SB company wanted to simply take my money they could set up a binaries operation registered in some tiny island jurisdiction, accept the deposits and then simply jet off to Brazil.
The fact that they are not, only shows that they have better profits in this ( broker ) business. Just to show the extent of profit they enjoy.

Last edited by parthaab; Aug 28, 2017 at 3:28pm.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 3:22pm   #64
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Theres things called 'liquidity providers', the only time youll be a problem for your broker is if your efforts damage their relationship.
What does this mean?
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 3:29pm   #65
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I know SB firms move spreads about every day, I see it every day. But if any new trader is trying to trade on such a tight margin for error that it could be negated by opening spreads, he's a fool who deserves to be parted from his money.
I disagree.

It's child's play to manipulate spreads not matter how big your stops losses are.

The quote for FTSE now is 5560 / 70 (assuming a 10 point SB spread) and I buy @ 5570 and my stop is at 5520, 30 minutes later the last traded is 5528, the SB spread " should " be 5523 / 33.

But the SB decides (and they can because that is their right) that the quote is 5520/ 30 because of " volatility ". Voila your stop has been hit and you're out the market.

Miraculously 10 minutes later the market has shot up to 5620, you lost and guess who hijacked your trade for a 50 pt profit ?
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 3:33pm   #66
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you lost and guess who hijacked your trade for a 50 pt profit ?
The asset holder who the bucketshop got the asset from. If the bucketshop is the holder, then the profit goes to them. You can't blindly say the bucketshop is the asset holder. Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 3:49pm   #67
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I disagree.

It's child's play to manipulate spreads not matter how big your stops losses are.

The quote for FTSE now is 5560 / 70 (assuming a 10 point SB spread) and I buy @ 5570 and my stop is at 5520, 30 minutes later the last traded is 5528, the SB spread " should " be 5523 / 33.

But the SB decides (and they can because that is their right) that the quote is 5520/ 30 because of " volatility ". Voila your stop has been hit and you're out the market.

Miraculously 10 minutes later the market has shot up to 5620, you lost and guess who hijacked your trade for a 50 pt profit ?

Its always possible the price of an asset you want to hold can drop. The reason or mechanism isn't as important as your analysis - if you reckon this is a temporary market blip, buy more. If you think its a more significant bearish move or you just don't know what's likely to happen, then that's what stop-losses are for.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 3:55pm   #68
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How could that be, when they are actually taking your opposite position, betting you will be in the 90% of traders who lose?



If you were a chicken, how would killing you for meat at one go be 'good business'. Its the same thing here. If you win, they lose.



So what, as long as they dont lose. Do you expect them to lose, ( and keep losing ) in order to retain their customer? That too, a 'bad' one?



The fact that they are not, only shows that they have better profits in this ( broker ) business. Just to show the extent of profit they enjoy.

As I said, its neutral to the SB company whether I win because there are 9 traders who are not me who are losing.

Also, if I suspect the SB company is trading against me or hunting my stops or whatever else, I don't need to wait to get wiped out, I can just withdraw my capital and walk. And that's the end of the SB company.

In any case, what you're suggesting is contrary to FCA regulations in the UK; this could never be kept secret from either customers, potential customers or the FCA. Its a risk the UK-based SB companies dare not face so it is a risk I can ignore.

Where is your trading company registered?
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 4:00pm   #69
Joined Nov 2001
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As I said, its neutral to the SB company whether I win because there are 9 traders who are not me who are losing.

Also, if I suspect the SB company is trading against me or hunting my stops or whatever else, I don't need to wait to get wiped out, I can just withdraw my capital and walk. And that's the end of the SB company.

In any case, what you're suggesting is contrary to FCA regulations in the UK; this could never be kept secret from either customers, potential customers or the FCA. Its a risk the UK-based SB companies dare not face so it is a risk I can ignore.

Where is your trading company registered?
Your post eases my mind a bit. It seems, this month, as if I am one of the nine you mentioned. I'm, still, in business, though. You haven't seen the last of me yet!
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 4:15pm   #70
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As I said, its neutral to the SB company whether I win because there are 9 traders who are not me who are losing.
To repeat, 9 / 10 traders will lose, whether the SB works against them or not. And that is not the point of the post.

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Also, if I suspect the SB company is trading against me or hunting my stops or whatever else, I don't need to wait to get wiped out, I can just withdraw my capital and walk. And that's the end of the SB company.
Not at all. There are always people who are being fooled by others into trading, being convinced that they have a good chance at winning. There are educators and professionals employed by the brokers all the time, to lure more people to part with their money. The business is worth BILLIONS, and not millions! You expect them to pay such 'educators' and 'guides' as a part of their 'expenses'.

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Originally Posted by tomorton View Post

In any case, what you're suggesting is contrary to FCA regulations in the UK; this could never be kept secret from either customers, potential customers or the FCA. Its a risk the UK-based SB companies dare not face so it is a risk I can ignore.

Where is your trading company registered?
No one is claiming that there is anything illegal in what they do. They only weed out the winners, slowly, so that they do not accumulate and drain off their profits. This can take many forms, including delayed executions ( time taken to hedge their trades ). Without which, they may slowly go out of business, to the successful traders.

Gambling, for example, is not illegal, and yet people trust the house with their money all the time. And you never see the house go out of business. Why?

This is the reason you dont find any successful day and scalp traders remaining.

By the way, this applies only to scalp and day traders, and not traders with longer time frame, who are obviously hedged.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 4:21pm   #71
 
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What does this mean?
It means you should do some research.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 4:35pm   #72
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It means you should do some research.
You wrote: "Theres things called 'liquidity providers', the only time youll be a problem for your broker is if your efforts damage their relationship."

What does this mean? What is there to research on?
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 4:37pm   #73
Joined Feb 2002
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To repeat, 9 / 10 traders will lose, whether the SB works against them or not. And that is not the point of the post.



Not at all. There are always people who are being fooled by others into trading, being convinced that they have a good chance at winning. There are educators and professionals employed by the brokers all the time, to lure more people to part with their money. The business is worth BILLIONS, and not millions! You expect them to pay such 'educators' and 'guides' as a part of their 'expenses'.



No one is claiming that there is anything illegal in what they do. They only weed out the winners, slowly, so that they do not accumulate and drain off their profits. This can take many forms, including delayed executions ( time taken to hedge their trades ). Without which, they may slowly go out of business, to the successful traders.

Gambling, for example, is not illegal, and yet people trust the house with their money all the time. And you never see the house go out of business. Why?

This is the reason you dont find any successful day and scalp traders remaining.

By the way, this applies only to scalp and day traders, and not traders with longer time frame, who are obviously hedged.

I'm not convinced scalpers and day-traders get specifically cheated. I find its easier to believe that 90% of new scalpers and day-traders are so inexperienced and unprepared for trading that nobody needs to cheat them out of their money, they're going to lose it anyway.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 5:14pm   #74
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I'm not convinced scalpers and day-traders get specifically cheated. I find its easier to believe that 90% of new scalpers and day-traders are so inexperienced and unprepared for trading that nobody needs to cheat them out of their money, they're going to lose it anyway.
Scalpers and brokers have a bit of a love hate relationship. The vast majority of client's that scalp will ultimately lose money over the life time of their account which is why brokers put up with them.

If an ATM gave free money away it wouldn't be operational for much longer than it took the bank to realise what was happening. Scalpers treat SB/CFD firms like a broken ATM and that isn't ever going to be sustainable.

Brokers are businesses and if they haven't got a fair chance to make money from a customer what is the point of having him as a customer.

Last edited by parthaab; Aug 28, 2017 at 8:11pm.
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Old Aug 28, 2017, 8:52pm   #75
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Brokers are businesses and if they haven't got a fair chance to make money from a customer what is the point of having him as a customer.

Its great for a broker to have losing clients on their books - they keep trading, trying to gain back their losses. But its great to have a winning client on their books also - they also keep trading, generating more profits through spreads or commission, and its a client who won't feel the need to go to another brokerage.

A broker with no clients (maybe because they wiped them all out, who knows, you may be right) isn't going to make any more money.
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