Money management

This is a discussion on Money management within the Psychology, Risk & Money Management forums, part of the Methods category; Lets say Joe, had £5000 and decided to trade the market to buy a private jet.. Also lets say he ...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Jul 19, 2003, 11:10am   #1
 
Grey1's Avatar
Joined Jun 2002
Money managment

Lets say Joe, had £5000 and decided to trade the market to buy a private jet..

Also lets say he had a trading strategy with 50% success rate ( coin flipping strategy ) and he never had to pay any commission not even a penny ... Joe is a simple man and likes to keep things simple so he risks 10% of his capital in every trade and takes profit after 10% gain .. ( Reward / Risk =1 )

After 200 trades what is going to happen to Joe

1) He buys his jet
2) He can not afford to buy his jet but he makes profit
3) He goes bankrupt and gets a job in his local Pub

What you think is going to happen to Joe ?




Iraj
Grey1 is offline Commercial chat room   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 11:15am   #2
 
ChartMan's Avatar
Joined Nov 2000
Sadly, he loses the lot
__________________
The views expressed here are my personal views and for your information only. Any expression of likely movement of a share is merely guesswork and is to be treated as such.This information must NOT be used as a basis for making any investment decision.
ChartMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 11:24am   #3
Joined Jun 2003
Or lots & lots more in a margin account
Oldun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 11:30am   #4
 
stevem12's Avatar
Joined Jun 2003
If he always uses 10% of his bank, adjusting it for each winner and loser he`ll never go broke. If he uses 10% of starting bank he`ll go broke on first losing run of ten, this WILL happen.

If he bets 10% and takes profit at 10% and has a winning % of 50% he will never ever make any money. 50% winners at even money = breakeven.

Steve
stevem12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 11:58am   #5
Joined May 2003
if he risks 10% of his capital on every trade, he is a fool
and a fool and his money are soon parted.

And so if he applied for a job in my pub, he wouldnt get it.
It's a cash handling business and you don't want fools
handling your money.

Poor old Joe.
__________________
Come fill the cup that clears
today of past regrets and future fears
bonsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 12:05pm   #6
 
Grey1's Avatar
Joined Jun 2002
Grey1 started this thread Bonsai,
what if he was not a fool and only risked 2% of his capital in each trade and took profit at 2% ..

Would he eventually make money or lose money ?
Would you give him a job in your pub if he risked 2% instead of 10% ?


iraj
Grey1 is offline Commercial chat room   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 12:16pm   #7
 
stevem12's Avatar
Joined Jun 2003
grey1

Think about the risk/reward, how can you make any money with a ratio of1/1 with 50% winners. It doesn`t matter what % you risk. A lower % reduces chance of going bust thats all. 40% wins with a ratio of 2/1 or higher risking 1-2% shows profit!

Steve
stevem12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 12:31pm   #8
 
ChartMan's Avatar
Joined Nov 2000
Again, sadly, he lets his losers run until he can stand the pain no longer.
__________________
The views expressed here are my personal views and for your information only. Any expression of likely movement of a share is merely guesswork and is to be treated as such.This information must NOT be used as a basis for making any investment decision.
ChartMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 12:58pm   #9
The Staff are paid members that perform various roles such as editorial, advertising, support or technical work.
 
Trader333's Avatar
Joined Jan 2003
Consecutive Losing Trades

The formula for probable consecutive losing (or winning) trades based on a known percentage of success is as follows:

C = Ln(X)/-Ln(Y)

Where C = Consecutive Losing trades
X = Number of trades made
Y = Losing percentage of trades

Attached is an Excel Spreadsheet that will do it automatically for you and as Chartman says with that level of risk per trade you will lose the lot.


Cheers


Paul
Attached Files
File Type: xls consec wins.xls (17.0 KB, 474 views)

Last edited by Trader333; Jul 19, 2003 at 6:23pm.
Trader333 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 1:02pm   #10
 
jpwone's Avatar
Joined Nov 2001
He cannot lose his complete initial stake if the stake used for each trade is a fixed percentage of his current balance. So, he wont go bankrupt (option 3).

The probability of making a profit is the same as that for making a loss. He has an equal chance of making a profit as he has of making a loss for any one trade Whether he makes a profit overall will depend upon the length of the win/loss runs in the 200 trade sample and the actual randomness of the wins to losses. If the win/loss per trade is random with each trade having a 50/50 probabilty of a win then it is possible to have more wins than losses (and vice versa) in the 200 trade sample.

Only with exceptional luck would he buy a jet (Option 1).

Making a loss is as likely as making a profit (Option 2).
jpwone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 1:58pm   #11
Joined May 2003
Grey1
lol
sorry but now I suspect he is still a fool for thinking he can live long enough to buy a jet if he only takes 2 % profit on winning trades with a starting trade of £100.

How much do these things cost anyway?

I know plenty of 747's are sitting idle in the desert but even so ?
A second hand Lear would still be out of reach.

PS: Don't forget also that when he gets down to rock bottom
the minimum number of shares you can buy is 1.
On that losing trade, he cannot re-enter ?.
__________________
Come fill the cup that clears
today of past regrets and future fears
bonsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 6:35pm   #12
 
Grey1's Avatar
Joined Jun 2002
Grey1 started this thread Joe will evantually lose all his money even though his is betting equal amount of his toal capital

Conclusion :--

1) if your trading strategy is 50/50 or less do not trade irrespective of how much you betting ..

2) donot not close your position unless your reward/risk is > 1
( lets say ur stoploss is 10 points on DOW including the spread, then you must let your trade run to justify the risk... if you feel you can not get a greater than 1 ratio DO NOT TAKE the trade..

3) improve on you entry to reduce the risk ( many technicians say entry is not all that important it is the exit that counts... This is not correct at all..)


iraj
Grey1 is offline Commercial chat room   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 6:43pm   #13
 
ChartMan's Avatar
Joined Nov 2000
Grey.You are absolutely right about 3)
__________________
The views expressed here are my personal views and for your information only. Any expression of likely movement of a share is merely guesswork and is to be treated as such.This information must NOT be used as a basis for making any investment decision.
ChartMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 8:08pm   #14
 
FTSE Beater's Avatar
Joined Feb 2002
Hi all

Interesting discussion.

The reason Joe would lose all his money is this. If he lost, won, lost, won, lost and then won he would have £4851.50

£5000 - 10% = £4500
£4500 + 10% = £4950
£4950 -10% = £4455
£4455 +10% = £4900.50
£4900.50 -10% = £4410.45
£4410.45 +10% = £4851.495

So on 6 trades he would lose £148.50


Grey1 wrote
Quote:
1) if your trading strategy is 50/50 or less do not trade irrespective of how much you betting ..
I would disagree with this. If you have a 3:1 Reward / Risk ratio every time, then you would make money. Trading and money management comes down to 3 factors. Win / Loss Ratio, AVG Win and AVG Loss

Quote:
2) donot not close your position unless your reward/risk is > 1
( lets say ur stoploss is 10 points on DOW including the spread, then you must let your trade run to justify the risk... if you feel you can not get a greater than 1 ratio DO NOT TAKE the trade..
I have to disagree with this. You could quite easily enter a trade on a good basis, only to find the market turns against you - YOU SHOULD CLOSE, and not let your stop-loss get hit just because your target hasn't been hit. Trading always requires some flexibility.


Quote:
3) improve on you entry to reduce the risk ( many technicians say entry is not all that important it is the exit that counts... This is not correct at all..)
I agree with you on this - although the exit and entry both have to be good. One cannot work without the other.

Just my thoughts
FTSE Beater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2003, 8:17pm   #15
Joined Dec 2002
If you have the trading stats (win% and win:loss ratio), this site is always worth a visit to give you a picture of the likely outcome http://www.hquotes.com/tradehard/simulator.html

If you put a figure of 100 in the Lines Qty box, you get a good idea of the likely range of equity curves (it uses a Monte Carlo simulation).

This will show that it is quite possible to have a winning system with very low win%, as long as the win:loss ratio is high enough to compensate. The drawdowns get ugly though
fowkesp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Money Management tradewin Spread Betting & CFDs 5 May 27, 2008 5:04pm
Article: Money Management T2W Bot Educational Resources 21 Jun 17, 2006 10:35am
Money Management King Tut First Steps 1 Feb 13, 2006 2:34pm
Money Management ddunne82 Psychology, Risk & Money Management 11 Jul 18, 2005 7:50am
Money management rossd Stocks 4 Oct 22, 2004 2:46pm

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)