8 Months Day trader need help

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distanteyes

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Hello all,

I took a 3 month course in swing trading - day trading a bout 10 months ago,
This course taught all the important basics about electronic trading along with technical analysis.

actually from the 3rd course lesson we already started trading real time with real money(only trades that were called by the instructor and only 50 shars or so) just to get the feel of losing/earning real money.

Ever since then i have been trading every day and i am also a member of an online trader chat room that with succsesful daytraders who teach and gives out trades real time.

anyway i have been day trading smal quantities for the last 8 months and some months i`d make a few hundred dollars profit(before commisions) and some months i`d lose a few hundreds or more.. and once i lost over a thousend.

All these losses i see as tuition fees and i understand no real learning can come without losses..
thing is after 8 months i am repeating a pattern of mistakes, I have a clear set of rules i am a Momentoum trader and i witness many highly sucssesful trades with this setup

THE PROBLEM is that every few days i have a horrible day when i throw away all my rules out the window.. i overtrade..i trade emotionally.. i dont quit when i reached my daily losing maximum.. and i end up a mental wreck and damage my account
these days normally follow up with another losing day or a break even day.

I have been starting to think about my attitude to money lately, is it possible that because this money is "virtual" i give it less meaning?

Normally what triggers these bad days for me is entering not so great setups out of the fear of "missing out"

Does anyone have any words of wisdom on how to stay in line with my rules no matter what? or is that the million dollar question?

I would really appriciate your response Cheers,

Lior
 
distanteyes said:
THE PROBLEM is that every few days i have a horrible day when i throw away all my rules out the window.. i overtrade..i trade emotionally.. i dont quit when i reached my daily losing maximum.. and i end up a mental wreck and damage my account
these days normally follow up with another losing day or a break even day.

Does anyone have any words of wisdom on how to stay in line with my rules no matter what? or is that the million dollar question?

I would really appriciate your response Cheers,

Lior
Click to expand...

This isn't meant to be flippant, just honest...

You don't need advice, you need willpower. At the risk of straying into psychobollocks-territory, you won't get that from a forum, you will have to develop it yourself.

Others will come along with all kinds of ideas BUT there is a danger that these can just reinforce the idea about how difficult this is. It's only as difficult as you make it.

Ben
 
8 month is nothing close to be consistent(myself takes a loooong way too...), or most of the people would give up already.
 
distanteyes said:
Hello all,

I took a 3 month course in swing trading - day trading a bout 10 months ago,
This course taught all the important basics about electronic trading along with technical analysis.

actually from the 3rd course lesson we already started trading real time with real money(only trades that were called by the instructor and only 50 shars or so) just to get the feel of losing/earning real money.

Ever since then i have been trading every day and i am also a member of an online trader chat room that with succsesful daytraders who teach and gives out trades real time.

anyway i have been day trading smal quantities for the last 8 months and some months i`d make a few hundred dollars profit(before commisions) and some months i`d lose a few hundreds or more.. and once i lost over a thousend.

All these losses i see as tuition fees and i understand no real learning can come without losses..
thing is after 8 months i am repeating a pattern of mistakes, I have a clear set of rules i am a Momentoum trader and i witness many highly sucssesful trades with this setup

THE PROBLEM is that every few days i have a horrible day when i throw away all my rules out the window.. i overtrade..i trade emotionally.. i dont quit when i reached my daily losing maximum.. and i end up a mental wreck and damage my account
these days normally follow up with another losing day or a break even day.

I have been starting to think about my attitude to money lately, is it possible that because this money is "virtual" i give it less meaning?

Normally what triggers these bad days for me is entering not so great setups out of the fear of "missing out"

Does anyone have any words of wisdom on how to stay in line with my rules no matter what? or is that the million dollar question?

I would really appriciate your response Cheers,

Lior
Click to expand...

Going thru the same thing brother.. Its gonna take alot of pain to finally say " i will never will deviate from my rules"" those impulsive reflexive re entries after a loss are killer. and countering a strong trend is the worst acct killer
 
I have to agree with RedGreenBen. This is behaviour which has to be stopped. There is no magic formula. Everything is in your own hands. When you get into this situation treat each "need" to trade again, as an alcoholic would treat the temptation for a drink - stop it THIS TIME. Don't worry about all the future times - just THIS TIME.

Read stuff by trading psychologists such as Brett Steenbarger.

Brett Steenbarger Trading Psychology

Read stuff about the nature of the markets and probability e.g. Trading in the Zone. See why it is OK to not get every trade right and still make money.

www.MarkDouglas.com

Look in a mirror. Value yourself. Stop beating yourself up about it

Charlton
 
distanteyes said:
Hello all,

I took a 3 month course in swing trading - day trading a bout 10 months ago,
This course taught all the important basics about electronic trading along with technical analysis.

actually from the 3rd course lesson we already started trading real time with real money(only trades that were called by the instructor and only 50 shars or so) just to get the feel of losing/earning real money.

Ever since then i have been trading every day and i am also a member of an online trader chat room that with succsesful daytraders who teach and gives out trades real time.

anyway i have been day trading smal quantities for the last 8 months and some months i`d make a few hundred dollars profit(before commisions) and some months i`d lose a few hundreds or more.. and once i lost over a thousend.

All these losses i see as tuition fees and i understand no real learning can come without losses..
thing is after 8 months i am repeating a pattern of mistakes, I have a clear set of rules i am a Momentoum trader and i witness many highly sucssesful trades with this setup

THE PROBLEM is that every few days i have a horrible day when i throw away all my rules out the window.. i overtrade..i trade emotionally.. i dont quit when i reached my daily losing maximum.. and i end up a mental wreck and damage my account
these days normally follow up with another losing day or a break even day.

I have been starting to think about my attitude to money lately, is it possible that because this money is "virtual" i give it less meaning?

Normally what triggers these bad days for me is entering not so great setups out of the fear of "missing out"

Does anyone have any words of wisdom on how to stay in line with my rules no matter what? or is that the million dollar question?

I would really appriciate your response Cheers,

Lior
Click to expand...

Hey dude! Don't worry this stage is pretty much normal, almost everyone faces it, only thing I personally do is to keep a clean and elaborate trading journal as a vital part of my Trading Plan. I definitely make sure to write down everything before attempting to take a trade, the reason why I am taking this trade and the whole thought process behind it including, at what price I should exit or part exit or the amount of position to be added at certain level etc etc depending upon the trade. After the trade is hit I wait and watch for the exit, after exiting the trade regardless of profit/loss, I immedietly write down a brief summary about the trade and what was the quality of self-talk I had etc. I also attach a chart related to the trade for future reference.
And every month I review the journal closely and see the progress in my discipline if any:) Believe it or not it has improved a lot since last 6months which was one of the biggest barrier in the beginning. Although there are some more serious issues to be sorted but I believe with time and patience I will find my way.
All the best. Cheers!
 
apmf said:
I definitely make sure to write down everything before attempting to take a trade, the reason why I am taking this trade and the whole thought process behind it including, at what price I should exit or part exit or the amount of position to be added at certain level etc etc depending upon the trade. After the trade is hit I wait and watch for the exit, after exiting the trade regardless of profit/loss, I immedietly write down a brief summary about the trade and what was the quality of self-talk I had etc. I also attach a chart related to the trade for future reference.
All the best. Cheers!
Click to expand...

Does it ever happen to you that the actual writing down makes you miss a trade?
I personally dont actually write down the stop the target etc..
I just look at the market, Look at my stock and if the setup is right for me i look at the market again and normally use a lot of Level 2 to time my entry (less in reversals though)
 
distanteyes said:
Does it ever happen to you that the actual writing down makes you miss a trade?
I personally dont actually write down the stop the target etc..
I just look at the market, Look at my stock and if the setup is right for me i look at the market again and normally use a lot of Level 2 to time my entry (less in reversals though)
Click to expand...

I think you didn't get my point, using level2 or whatever is just a basis of your entry-exit method. But what I meant by writing down the thought process and your self-talk monitoring is the way to build discipline and closely watching your behaviour, your emotions which is not really allowing you to stick with your own rules which you have set for managing the trade. A good method is one of the many pre requisites to profitable trading.
And about me missing a trade whilst writing.. Tell you what I dont really care, there are plenty of opportunities every now and then I rather like to sit and wait for a perfect A++ setup which would be worth waiting. Obviously if you are a scalper then it may be impossible to write down each and every thing but still you can write a brief at the end of your trading session. All these views are IMHO, it is working for me doesnot mean it will work for you, may be you are too lazy to implement this rule in your routine.
 
Last edited:
distanteyes said:
Does it ever happen to you that the actual writing down makes you miss a trade? I personally dont actually write down the stop the target etc..
I just look at the market, Look at my stock and if the setup is right for me i look at the market again and normally use a lot of Level 2 to time my entry (less in reversals though)
Click to expand...

Yes...and no. (What you are experiencing by the way is what I think all traders go through. I put my hand up and admit I have lost money due to breaking my rules.) If you spend even just one week without trading but just taking notes, making observations, you will make NEW discoveries which will either add to or improve your current methodology, maybe even change it completely. When you are 'free' from the strain of having to trade your mind is able to absorb new information that you may have ignored or missed in the past. But, this is one thing that many who try this game are unwilling to do. To sit at your screen for 10 hours/day for a week or more and resisting the temptation to trade requires discipline. You must be committed to this exercise. You must be able to walk away from your screen after having sat watching it all day without making a trade and know you have done the right thing. This is just a start.
 
In brief, you need to learn to look at yourself from the outside and control what you're doing. If you feel the demon taking you, you need to recognise this so it doesn't cost you. It is about willpower but also about understanding what drives you.
 
new_trader said:
Yes...and no. (What you are experiencing by the way is what I think all traders go through. I put my hand up and admit I have lost money due to breaking my rules.) If you spend even just one week without trading but just taking notes, making observations, you will make NEW discoveries which will either add to or improve your current methodology, maybe even change it completely. When you are 'free' from the strain of having to trade your mind is able to absorb new information that you may have ignored or missed in the past. But, this is one thing that many who try this game are unwilling to do. To sit at your screen for 10 hours/day for a week or more and resisting the temptation to trade requires discipline. You must be committed to this exercise. You must be able to walk away from your screen after having sat watching it all day without making a trade and know you have done the right thing. This is just a start.
Click to expand...

Just when I thought t2w was doing its periodic disappearing under a mountain of dung routine, along comes a post like this one.
Well said, sir !
Richard
 
Does any of you treat or have treated success in trading as the center of your life?
I mean.. i have dreams at night about trades and trading is a dominant thought in my head during the days.. only in the weekend after a few beers i forget :)
 
Tuition fees is a good way to describe it but you can't cling to this excuse forever..

You are letting poor risk management, frustration and ego get in the way of making money.

Money management and pyschology are two of the most important areas of trading. If you
follow quotes from any successful trader then they all say the same thing:-

Cut losses and run winners.. This sounds simple and it can be if you have a structured plan for getting in and out of trade ideas. You can use a demo platform to work with different stop sizes, timeframes etc and see if you can find the right one to eliminate stress and overtrading.

Your desire to be 'right' and not lose money is forcing you to push too hard to WIN. Be patient for the right setup. Take a trade idea and if it's wrong, get out- end of story..

You can try to adjust stop sizes etc but eventually you have to just become better at spotting a trend and following it.
 
SAINT said:
Tuition fees is a good way to describe it but you can't cling to this excuse forever..

You are letting poor risk management, frustration and ego get in the way of making money.



Your desire to be 'right' and not lose money is forcing you to push too hard to WIN. Be patient for the right setup. Take a trade idea and if it's wrong, get out- end of story..
Click to expand...

Thanks saint that really does strike the nail, I am starting to feel that i might be using that as an excuse lately, I think i know how to make money on US stock i but lack the discpline to follow through.
Everyday in the markets is different i guess i have to learn how to lean on my principles and method for whatever that means on that day.
Wait for the right setup however long it takes or not trade.
 
distanteyes said:
Thanks saint that really does strike the nail, I am starting to feel that i might be using that as an excuse lately, I think i know how to make money on US stock i but lack the discpline to follow through.
Everyday in the markets is different i guess i have to learn how to lean on my principles and method for whatever that means on that day. Wait for the right setup however long it takes or not trade.
Click to expand...

The best books I've read probably are Ari Kiev Trading to Win and Jesse Livermore
How to trade stocks.

Trading to win makes you look at trading in a different way through goals and performance and the Livermore book is full of rules from his own experiences which strike a chord with every lesson I've learned from my own studies.

Two main points are patience- the big money is made in the big swings. So learn how to
spot them and wait for them. Secondly, speculation is a business like a shopkeepers
inventory. If you lose your line you are out of business. So never risk more than 10%
on any trade because despite putting in hard work we are all at risk from human error
and stress.

I too used to hold losing positions and hope they'd come back. Sometimes it works but
eventually you will get blown out the market. Looking back it looks easy but my emotions at the time clouded my judgement. Never hold a loser beyond your stop and never add to a losing position.

Also google Dennis Gartman's rules. Gartman and Livermore are two very smart men who learned despite
being in the markets for years they are never always right.
 
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yes i also think..its not that 8mths will make some1 perfect..some may take more..some even less.depends..best of luck anyway
 
and yes forgot

"Gartman and Livermore are two very smart men who learned despite
being in the markets for years they are never always right."
Click to expand...

thats d Key ... thiking one can be always right is the perfect system to losing shirt
 
In the battle between your subconscious mind and your conscious mind, the former will always win. I believe the main reason people fail at trading is that they come from the world of 9 - 5 'slave mentality' workers and think they can succeed in the big money world of entrepreneurs and high flyers. It just won't happen unless the subconscious really believes it's possible - and it doesn't.

It's about as likely as a supermarket checkout girl making a go of being a Managing Director of a multi-national. At least she is more likely than the new trader to realise that she is out of her depth.

Successful traders talk about it taking years of dedication, discipline and learning when really they make the transition to steady profits only when their subconscious has been reprogrammed for success in this new world. Since it is SUB conscious, we know nothing about it and attribute it’s effects to external factors.

That's why we constantly blow our chances of success - we give back the profits our subconscious tells us we don't deserve. I forget which famous trader said that everybody gets out of the market exactly what he or she wants. The problem is, many people have a subconscious that wants to self-destruct.

More important than finding the right system is re-programming your subconscious to genuinely believe you can quit the rat race and become financially independent. It took me a long time and many tens of thousands to discover this. People bang their heads against a brick wall looking for systems and knowledge and trying to develop 'will power' when none of these things is the slightest use if your subconscious is working against you.
 
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