Moulding the brain

0007

0007

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Just been listening to Radio4 "Start the week" prog. 1st 15 mins by Prof. Greenfield (Baroness Susan Greenfield — Pharmacology) on nano technology & brainpower. An interesting side discussion was that the brain starts out with fixed no. of cells/neurons and it's how we develop the connections between them that influences future personal cerebral capabilities.

Now, nothing new so far but what she then said is that there is a whole generation that has developed differently due to being in front of PC screens for up to 6 hrs/day or playing computer games on a regular / permanent basis. She contrasts this with book / text reading which apparently stimulates the brain in a different way. She explains that the whole brain operates differently dependent on how the neural connections are made and thus enables different skills or expertise levels.

So the point that emerges is that what you end up like (mentally) depends on how you use/train the brain. On a psychological & trading level this seems to tie in very nicely with the ideas put forward by the likes of Douglas (Trading in the Zone) and their ilk.

I believe that for small cap, non-pro traders that once you have mastered the basics of TA then the psychology (ie how you run your brain) of your trading is the biggest influence on your success (or otherwise). Can't speak for large cap/pro traders because I've not been there but it would be interesting to hear their views. Presumably, trading mega amounts is different due to liquidity etc but is the psychology the same?

Worth a listen if you're into this sort of thing - replay is here: BBC iPlayer - Radio - Audio on Demand
 
0007 said:
An interesting side discussion was that the brain starts out with fixed no. of cells/neurons and it's how we develop the connections between them that influences future personal cerebral capabilities.
Click to expand...

This might interest you as well:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/374726-post119.html

"...For decades, neuroscientists believed the number of new cells, or neurons, in the adult brain was fixed early in life. Adaptive processes such as learning, memory and mood were thought tied to changes in synapses, connections between neurons.

More recently, studies have shown that the adult human brain is capable of producing new brain cells throughout life, a neurogenesis resulting in formation of hundreds of thousands of new neurons each month..."
 
0007 said:
Just been listening to Radio4 "Start the week" prog. 1st 15 mins by Prof. Greenfield (Baroness Susan Greenfield — Pharmacology) on nano technology & brainpower. An interesting side discussion was that the brain starts out with fixed no. of cells/neurons and it's how we develop the connections between them that influences future personal cerebral capabilities.

Now, nothing new so far but what she then said is that there is a whole generation that has developed differently due to being in front of PC screens for up to 6 hrs/day or playing computer games on a regular / permanent basis. She contrasts this with book / text reading which apparently stimulates the brain in a different way. She explains that the whole brain operates differently dependent on how the neural connections are made and thus enables different skills or expertise levels.

So the point that emerges is that what you end up like (mentally) depends on how you use/train the brain. On a psychological & trading level this seems to tie in very nicely with the ideas put forward by the likes of Douglas (Trading in the Zone) and their ilk.

I believe that for small cap, non-pro traders that once you have mastered the basics of TA then the psychology (ie how you run your brain) of your trading is the biggest influence on your success (or otherwise). Can't speak for large cap/pro traders because I've not been there but it would be interesting to hear their views. Presumably, trading mega amounts is different due to liquidity etc but is the psychology the same?

Worth a listen if you're into this sort of thing - replay is here: BBC iPlayer - Radio - Audio on Demand
Click to expand...

A commonly quoted statistic is that 80% of succesful trading is the psychological part i.e. managing yourself.
This is why you can give a perfectly good strategy to any number of people and they will make a hack of using it and lose money in the process.
Most of what is discussed here and elsewhere only cover the other 20%.
The Pareto Principle applies - the hardest 80% part gets 20% of the attention - or less usually.

But then it's much easier to sell charting software and data feeds and discuss strategies and patterns and all those other tip-of-the-iceberg things, than to facilitate the means to enable a trader to deal with the pshychological aspects.

Trading in the Zone is my favourite trading book. Other than that I rely on periodically doing self-hypnosis to try to keep my head straight.
Glenn
 
Let me give you a real-word simple example of how your head can get screwed up - not trading related, but demonstrates the power of the subconscious mind to control behaviour.
Years ago my wife was a practitioner in Curative Hypnotherapy, otherwise known as Root Work.
This involves getting to the root cause of a problem and resolving it rather than trying to conquer it by suggestion as in the kind of hypnotherapy most people know..
She changed many people lives for the better forever.

Client presents as very overweight lady who has tried all sorts of means to lose weight and none have made the slighest difference. She came to my wife as a last resort, as many other had done.

Under hypnosis she was regressed to the time when the problem started. She was a little girl playing in the garden with her elder brother.
In the garden was an old well covered over with planks.
Her brother removed the planks and started to play a game of pretending to push her down the well.
This went on for a long time and she became very frightened, traumatised even.
In the end it was just a game and nothing bad happened,but that was enough to kick her subconscious into survival mode.
From that day on she gradually put on weight with no additional eating- so that (to her subconscious) she would be too big to go down the well.

Having uncovered the reason, the remainder of the process is about talking to the person as an adult and helping them to resolve and then accept the reality and unlikelihood of it ever happening and therefore there being no need to be a big person.
1 - 2 - 3 awake.

From that day onwards her weight came gradually back down to normal with no effort on her part.

Interestingly, as an aside, all the clients came out of their problem thinking that it was themselves who had cured their problem, which was true to a certain extent, but they never gave any credit to my wife until years later when it dawned on them what she had done with her skills.

Anyway, thought this might be an interesting story related to the topic.

Glenn
 
Glenn said:
Let me give you a real-word simple example of how your head can get screwed up - not trading related, but demonstrates the power of the subconscious mind to control behaviour.
Years ago my wife was a practitioner in Curative Hypnotherapy, otherwise known as Root Work.
This involves getting to the root cause of a problem and resolving it rather than trying to conquer it by suggestion as in the kind of hypnotherapy most people know..
She changed many people lives for the better forever.

Client presents as very overweight lady who has tried all sorts of means to lose weight and none have made the slighest difference. She came to my wife as a last resort, as many other had done.

Under hypnosis she was regressed to the time when the problem started. She was a little girl playing in the garden with her elder brother.
In the garden was an old well covered over with planks.
Her brother removed the planks and started to play a game of pretending to push her down the well.
This went on for a long time and she became very frightened, traumatised even.
In the end it was just a game and nothing bad happened,but that was enough to kick her subconscious into survival mode.
From that day on she gradually put on weight with no additional eating- so that (to her subconscious) she would be too big to go down the well.

Having uncovered the reason, the remainder of the process is about talking to the person as an adult and helping them to resolve and then accept the reality and unlikelihood of it ever happening and therefore there being no need to be a big person.
1 - 2 - 3 awake.

From that day onwards her weight came gradually back down to normal with no effort on her part.

Interestingly, as an aside, all the clients came out of their problem thinking that it was themselves who had cured their problem, which was true to a certain extent, but they never gave any credit to my wife until years later when it dawned on them what she had done with her skills.

Anyway, thought this might be an interesting story related to the topic.

Glenn
Click to expand...

Glenn,

A very interesting account. So I wonder how many of us aren't as successful as we could be (or give up trading) due to problems we don't even know we suffer from (unknown knowns?). This may explain those personal reactions which don't seem to have any obvious explanation. For some time I think I have worked out some experiences from my childhood that influence my behaviour now - not necessarily in a good or bad way but influences nevertheless that account for certain behaviour traits.

Funny thing the mind: if only we could understand it perfectly!
 
Glenn said:
But then it's much easier to sell charting software and data feeds and discuss strategies and patterns and all those other tip-of-the-iceberg things, than to facilitate the means to enable a trader to deal with the pshychological aspects.
Click to expand...

That is the point though! Those 'strategies', 'patterns' and other tip-of-the-iceberg things are promoted as the panacea to all the pshychological aspects of trading. That's why newbies, the lazy and the ignorant are attracted to them like flies to manure.
 
"Moulding the brain"..looking back at some of the people I've had to do business with over the years I'd settle for a solution based on just finding the fecking thing.
 
chump said:
"Moulding the brain"..looking back at some of the people I've had to do business with over the years I'd settle for a solution based on just finding the fecking thing.
Click to expand...


Chump, by moulding the brain it's sort of self help kinda thang. You know somebody showing you how to find and fix your own brain. :cheesy:
 
Atilla said:
Chump, by moulding the brain it's sort of self help kinda thang. You know somebody showing you how to find and fix your own brain. :cheesy:
Click to expand...

Atilla, see your point and yes, this sort of thing can get taken to daft levels. But where / how / when does it actually become "training"? - which I see as useful. Eg flight crews are trained to react automatically and in a standard way to standard problems - that's a form of brain moulding which has been shown to be more likely to produce the correct actions under stress conditions. Gotta be some lessons for traders surely?
 
0007 said:
Atilla, see your point and yes, this sort of thing can get taken to daft levels. But where / how / when does it actually become "training"? - which I see as useful. Eg flight crews are trained to react automatically and in a standard way to standard problems - that's a form of brain moulding which has been shown to be more likely to produce the correct actions under stress conditions. Gotta be some lessons for traders surely?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't class this kind of thing as training 007. To me training is repitiiton which improves reaction and embedding into auto response.

This sort of thing is more like discovery. It's helping one identify the inner workings of what why how when where solutions. Great stuff. (y)
 
Glenn said:
Let me give you a real-word simple example of how your head can get screwed up - not trading related, but demonstrates the power of the subconscious mind to control behaviour.
Years ago my wife was a practitioner in Curative Hypnotherapy, otherwise known as Root Work.
This involves getting to the root cause of a problem and resolving it rather than trying to conquer it by suggestion as in the kind of hypnotherapy most people know..
She changed many people lives for the better forever.

Client presents as very overweight lady who has tried all sorts of means to lose weight and none have made the slighest difference. She came to my wife as a last resort, as many other had done.

Under hypnosis she was regressed to the time when the problem started. She was a little girl playing in the garden with her elder brother.
In the garden was an old well covered over with planks.
Her brother removed the planks and started to play a game of pretending to push her down the well.
This went on for a long time and she became very frightened, traumatised even.
In the end it was just a game and nothing bad happened,but that was enough to kick her subconscious into survival mode.
From that day on she gradually put on weight with no additional eating- so that (to her subconscious) she would be too big to go down the well.

Having uncovered the reason, the remainder of the process is about talking to the person as an adult and helping them to resolve and then accept the reality and unlikelihood of it ever happening and therefore there being no need to be a big person.
1 - 2 - 3 awake.

From that day onwards her weight came gradually back down to normal with no effort on her part.
Click to expand...

are the facts of this good ladies case not as follows:

1. girl becomes overweight
2. girl becomes women stays overweight
3. overweight women tries to lose weight, (because she feels bad about being overweight), but fails
4. tries again, fails
5. finds a professional person to tell her its not her fault, its something that happened to her when she was young
6. women feels better about herself, losses weight

is this not the placebo effect at work

or maybe my brain is not moulded correctly:)

belflan
 
Last edited:
belflan said:
are the facts of this good ladies case not as follows:

1. girl becomes overweight
2. girl becomes women stays overweight
3. overweight women tries to lose weight, (because she feels bad about being overweight), but fails
4. tries again, fails
5. finds a professional person to tell her its not her fault, its something that happened to her when she was young
6. women feels better about herself, losses weight

is this not the placebo effect at work

or maybe my brain is not moulded correctly:)

belflan
Click to expand...

You are right your brain is not moulded correctly!

This could be because when you were a baby with a very soft head your parents put you to your side facing the door - so they could check up on your pretty little face at night time...

Hence, your brain may have had less skull cavity to grow into one one side, explaining deformity or more balanced well rounded growth of your brain... What's wrong with your left eye??? I'd guess you were placed on your left side... ;)

Is this plausible or am I talking rubbish... :smart::idea::eek:
 
belflan said:
are the facts of this good ladies case not as follows:

1. girl becomes overweight
2. girl becomes women stays overweight
3. overweight women tries to lose weight, (because she feels bad about being overweight), but fails
4. tries again, fails
5. finds a professional person to tell her its not her fault, its something that happened to her when she was young
6. women feels better about herself, losses weight

is this not the placebo effect at work

or maybe my brain is not moulded correctly:)

belflan
Click to expand...

OK Belflan, let's follow your line of thinking:-

Trader can't trade for toffee.
Told (by someone qualified) that it's not his fault, it was something that happened when he was young.
From then on Trader becomes profitable. Easy peasy.

Here endeth the thread then ?

The problem with the example in my post was that perhaps it was too simple in order to get a point across, and theferefore invites simple solutions.
Root Work is a voyage of discovery, detective work, lile peeling away many layers of an onion, each of which appears to be the answer.
The Subconscious does not want to release information because it is a survival mechanism, and so it has to be tricked into letting information out.
The person has to re-live the experience that caused the problem and this requires a skilled and qualified (RMN at least) practitioner to manage the process and to manage those times when the person goes into panic mode, screaming and shouting and thrashing about, reliving sexual abuse or other trauma which the subconscious has so far hidden away in order to protect.
Only by re-living the problem can the person understand what happened and how it came to have it's effect (overweight etc), and then in an adult way, resolve it in their own mind. This is why they go away thinking that they have cured themselves.
Some placebo !

Trying to keep the thread on track - A question - How many traders inwardly think that they don't actually deserve to make money and feel sort-of guilty when they do, and when they lose feel that it's their destiny to do so, and somehow feel strangely confortable with that, and overall they lose ?
Will your placebo answer that ?

Glenn
 
Glenn said:
Trying to keep the thread on track - A question - How many traders inwardly think that they don't actually deserve to make money and feel sort-of guilty when they do, and when they lose feel that it's their destiny to do so, and somehow feel strangely confortable with that, and overall they lose ?
Will your placebo answer that ?

Glenn
Click to expand...

hi Glenn,

no, it probably won't, but in my view it is a reasonable alternate reason to why the lady may have lost weight at that time.

but who knows for sure (how on earth could it be proven), there is only a few things that we can be sure of; the lady reduced her food intake or her body burnt more calories after that the the reasons why her food intake reduced or her body burnt more calories are up for grabs in my view..

may have been something to do with an incident that happened when she was young (that she has now worked through)
may have been because of the placebo effect
may have been for other reasons we just don't know about

regards (and respect for you're views as always)
belflan
 
Last edited:
belflan said:
hi Glenn,

no, it probably won't, but in my view it is a reasonable alternate reason to why the lady may have lost weight at that time.

but who knows for sure (how on earth could it be proven), there is only a few things that we can be sure of; the lady reduced her food intake or her body burnt more calories after that the the reasons why her food intake reduced or her body burnt more calories are up for grabs in my view..

may have been something to do with an incident that happened when she was young (that she has now worked through)
may have been because of the placebo effect
may have been for other reasons we just don't know about

regards (and respect for you're views as always)
belflan
Click to expand...

She didn't change her food intake or exercise on the way up or down.
The only rationale reason is therefore that her metabolism changed under the control of her subconscious, firstly reduced in order to gain weight and then increased in order to lose it.

You appear to be unimpressed by all this - fair enough, I respect your view too. Let's move on.

Have you or anyone ever tried self-hypnosis ?
(Or is it a bloke thing not to consider such things, as in "No dear I'm not lost, I'm just seeking an alternative destination" ?)
If you wanted to alter your behaviour in order,for example, to improve your discipline or stop your self trading out of boredom, or letting losers run and cutting profits, or scared to hit the button, how would you do it ?

Glenn
 
Glenn said:
She didn't change her food intake or exercise on the way up or down.
The only rationale reason is therefore that her metabolism changed under the control of her subconscious, firstly reduced in order to gain weight and then increased in order to lose it.

You appear to be unimpressed by all this - fair enough, I respect your view too. Let's move on.

Have you or anyone ever tried self-hypnosis ?
(Or is it a bloke thing not to consider such things, as in "No dear I'm not lost, I'm just seeking an alternative destination" ?)
If you wanted to alter your behaviour in order,for example, to improve your discipline or stop your self trading out of boredom, or letting losers run and cutting profits, or scared to hit the button, how would you do it ?

Glenn
Click to expand...

thanks for your understanding, I'm actually a firm believer in self-hypnosis and use it quite often have been on and off since my late teens. i also believe very firmly that the power of the subcon mind can not be underestimated. but sometimes this stuff can descend into mumbo jumbo land and not really reflect the sound science around suggestion to the subcon mind (ie sometimes these types of things get placed along side 'magicial energy field' type things that have no scientific merit, and I don't really know why). makes me alittle reluctant to discuss how i use it, its really a very simple but (for me anyway) useful process

belflan

the reason i put forward the placebo effect, was to support a view that the subcon mind is a very powerful tool

(the comments I make around this subject are not from a full time trader point of view, however i would see no reason why this stuff could not be used for this purpose)
 
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This sounds like a bunch of made up stuff that someone is saying to sell something. Everybody has the same chemicals in their brains. Currently, something like "romantic chemistry" would be beyond science's ability to test. The best that you could hope for would be some kind of personality survey where you answer a bunch of questions and then can find out what kind of personality you have. These can be somewhat accurate for basic personalities like outgoing, shy, honest, depressed, etc.
 
belflan said:
5. finds a professional person to tell her its not her fault, its something that happened to her when she was young
6. women feels better about herself, losses weight

is this not the placebo effect at work

belflan
Click to expand...

You've missed the point here. Number 5 was not the solution. The solution was releasing the emotions connected with the event. The important issue is that we all have traumatic events from the past of which we have absolutely no conscious memory - and these screw up our current behaviour.

They are not things we can know about, by definition, because they are in the SUBconscious.

There is no placebo effect at work because something real took place, something was discovered. It would only be a placebo if the professional had merely suggested the underlying problem and a solution. In fact she suggested no solution, the body simply returned to normal because the stress has been released.

You would be amazed what events can be repressed in the subconscious and the person simply does not have the slightest clue about them! On a more subtle level, many people have been convinced in their childhood that they are 'no good' and will never succeed.

All this is extremely relevant to trading because those buried traumas and subtle suggestions we have do ruin our chances of success.
 
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