Why Is The Obvious Not So Obvious?

This is a discussion on Why Is The Obvious Not So Obvious? within the Psychology, Risk & Money Management forums, part of the Methods category; No doubt the title will have some thinking As can be seen from the number of posts in this section ...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Dec 9, 2015, 9:58pm   #1
 
Lúidín's Avatar
Joined May 2015
Why Is The Obvious Not So Obvious?

No doubt the title will have some thinking

As can be seen from the number of posts in this section of the site, it is "obvious" that the majority of those who are seeking knowledge in relation to making money trading, have not done any solid ground work prior to starting.

If you were to build a house, would you put in 6 inches of concrete for the foundation?

I could make a list, but I will not bother, as I try to keep things simple and short.

So, why is it that the majority of people do not take very seriously the mental aspects (psychology) of trading, as it is by far the most important aspect.

What does the "psychology" of trading mean to you, and if you go off and search the internet for an answer, then the only person you are fooling is yourself.

You must speak exactly what comes out of your mind, and not use words of others.

Lúidín
Lúidín is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: options-george
Old Dec 9, 2015, 10:22pm   #2
 
darktone's Avatar
Joined Nov 2003
Most people identify with their minds, and are just plain unaware of the stress and ego related issues they bring to trading and life in general. Then they search for the answer in a method that accommodates their state of mind (fearful). Market wisdom eh!
From there its an endless game of circles that can range from grinding a profit to doing ya knackers.

Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
Me and you, we is largely the same bruv! We dont know shît! The difference is, I know I dont know shît!!
darktone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 9, 2015, 10:43pm   #3
 
itspossible's Avatar
Joined Sep 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
6 inches of concrete
Thats me
Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by piphoe View Post
i'm lying for the attention
Quote:
Originally Posted by piphoe View Post
reloading another "K" next week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by piphoe View Post
you don't really have an orange juice position do you?
itspossible is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: Fugazsy
Old Dec 9, 2015, 10:51pm   #4
 
Lúidín's Avatar
Joined May 2015
Lúidín started this thread No one can answer the question for anyone else, but we can make assumptions by reading what people post.

I think that what people fail to realize, is that there is a required learning curve in "the art of losing", as this goes against all we have been taught with our archaic education system.

How can someone in their right mind, start making money by learning how to lose money!

Have you ever seen any person post in a thread, asking for someone to show them how to lose correctly?

Also, learning how to lose correctly is but the start, for if you become an expert at only losing, then you will "obviously" not make any money.

If a person is not aware, and willing to radically change, the way they normally think then the odds of succeeding is very low, and that person will more than likely join the stats, which I have no doubt is indeed around 95%, if not even a bit higher.

Lúidín
Lúidín is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: itspossible
Old Dec 10, 2015, 10:49am   #5
Joined Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
No doubt the title will have some thinking
Some, perhaps.

Others may immediately recognise it from the well-known 440-page thread in another trading forum, where it originally appeared in identical form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
You must speak exactly what comes out of your mind, and not use words of others.
We must, but you don't have to, apparently?
alexaherself is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 10, 2015, 11:18am   #6
 
Lúidín's Avatar
Joined May 2015
Lúidín started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexaherself View Post
Some, perhaps.

Others may immediately recognise it from the well-known 440-page thread in another trading forum, where it originally appeared in identical form.



We must, but you don't have to, apparently?
You are assuming, which can sometimes mean...

make an ass out of u and me

The point, obviously, is if you want to really try and help yourself, then you must be true to yourself, and not jump from jimmy to jack, so as not to make yourself look foolish in front of people you can't even hear, let alone see.

It really is amazing how silly people can be when it comes to trading, and I speak from first hand experiences

Lúidín
Lúidín is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 10, 2015, 12:54pm   #7
 
itspossible's Avatar
Joined Sep 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
No one can answer the question for anyone else, but we can make assumptions by reading what people post.

I think that what people fail to realize, is that there is a required learning curve in "the art of losing", as this goes against all we have been taught with our archaic education system.

How can someone in their right mind, start making money by learning how to lose money!

Have you ever seen any person post in a thread, asking for someone to show them how to lose correctly?

Also, learning how to lose correctly is but the start, for if you become an expert at only losing, then you will "obviously" not make any money.

If a person is not aware, and willing to radically change, the way they normally think then the odds of succeeding is very low, and that person will more than likely join the stats, which I have no doubt is indeed around 95%, if not even a bit higher.

Lúidín
A very good point.When i first started trading i lost 5k on shares but i was always quick to take losses.I then started spreadbetting and obviously had the advantage of being able to short.I didnt follow any charts and taught myself using patterns and feel-i made all of the 5k back.I think as long as you can cut the cancer quickly(losses)and try and let your profits run you can make it.The next step is having the mental mind set to make it.I stopped as i do not want trading to take over my life as it is very addictive.Depressing when losing and amazing when winning.I still watch the markets but i really think that people get married to charts etc.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by piphoe View Post
i'm lying for the attention
Quote:
Originally Posted by piphoe View Post
reloading another "K" next week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by piphoe View Post
you don't really have an orange juice position do you?
itspossible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 10, 2015, 7:47pm   #8
 
Lúidín's Avatar
Joined May 2015
Lúidín started this thread You can actually post without using pictures

Yes, it can be very addictive, but you should not let it take over your life once you have worked out a way to make some money consistently.

If I was to get paid $5 for all the hours I have spent gaining the experiences, I would never need a margin account and could daytrade SPY and AAPL all day without any concerns about buying power.

We are all different, but we should all look for the least risky way to trade, that takes up the least amount of time.

I had to go full circle, before I realized that the best way for me was the way I was first interested in..what a dope I was, and I now feel real silly when I look back at all the years, and money, I wasted.

Lúidín
Lúidín is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 10, 2015, 9:10pm   #9
 
tokyojoe's Avatar
Joined May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
You can actually post without using pictures

Yes, it can be very addictive, but you should not let it take over your life once you have worked out a way to make some money consistently.

If I was to get paid $5 for all the hours I have spent gaining the experiences, I would never need a margin account and could daytrade SPY and AAPL all day without any concerns about buying power.

We are all different, but we should all look for the least risky way to trade, that takes up the least amount of time.

I had to go full circle, before I realized that the best way for me was the way I was first interested in..what a dope I was, and I now feel real silly when I look back at all the years, and money, I wasted.

Lúidín
Hi, can you please tell me if you are consistently profitable each & every day ?
I will tell you that I am not.

This game changes everyday, the flow is different everyday, the opportunities vary greatly every single day.

The psychological aspect of this game (fear & greed) can be grasped fairly quickly, much in the same way that "price levels/areas of interest" are grasped fairly quickly.

But just because it hits my blah blah level, it doesn't necessarily make that area of interest tradable.

You speak as someone who is perhaps consistently profitable & my hat's off if you are, but I've been at this long enough on a part time level to know the craic.

If in the daily arena it is a wage made, or a wage lost (or worse) no amount of psychology is going to help us when we have a runner & it turns back, profit is profit.
No amount of psychology is going to help us if it goes all Donald Trump & we end up babysitting the position for 4 hours because the trap door fell open before we could jump to the side...... it's flown & out of your hands, then a pure gamble.

Sure the game is psychological, but it is also very mechanical, instinct & a degree of discretionary thought also plays a part.

Hard way to make a consistent wage, or is it ??
tokyojoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: Fugazsy
Old Dec 11, 2015, 12:28am   #10
 
Lúidín's Avatar
Joined May 2015
Lúidín started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokyojoe View Post
Hi, can you please tell me if you are consistently profitable each & every day ?
I will tell you that I am not.

This game changes everyday, the flow is different everyday, the opportunities vary greatly every single day.

The psychological aspect of this game (fear & greed) can be grasped fairly quickly, much in the same way that "price levels/areas of interest" are grasped fairly quickly.

But just because it hits my blah blah level, it doesn't necessarily make that area of interest tradable.

You speak as someone who is perhaps consistently profitable & my hat's off if you are, but I've been at this long enough on a part time level to know the craic.

If in the daily arena it is a wage made, or a wage lost (or worse) no amount of psychology is going to help us when we have a runner & it turns back, profit is profit.
No amount of psychology is going to help us if it goes all Donald Trump & we end up babysitting the position for 4 hours because the trap door fell open before we could jump to the side...... it's flown & out of your hands, then a pure gamble.

Sure the game is psychological, but it is also very mechanical, instinct & a degree of discretionary thought also plays a part.

Hard way to make a consistent wage, or is it ??
To be honest, no, but I don't trade every day at the moment due to personal circumstances. Let's just say I am returning to full time trading

Your post is very good, in that it asks many relevant questions, some that many might find hard to associate with.

As in all business ventures, there are always opportunities presenting themselves, which of course all will not see and act on, for variouys reasons - hence why we have a small few who make big money, as they have a knack for seeing and acting - take R.Branson for instance.

If you know the craic, then you will know that the mental aspect comes first, followed by the mechanics, of which some are far better than others, again, some of which can be seen and acted on by a few to make some good money, while most never see them for whatever reasons.

As for things going wrong, the only things that goes wrong is when the trader does not react to what is actually happening, which, is governed by his/her mental make up.

If your strategy keeps you in a losing trade for too long, then it is not a good one.

If you can not identify a strategy that allows you to exit a loser with a small loss, and have winners that are multiples of your losers, then you have not enough experience to differentiate between good and bad opportunities.

In order to achieve consistent profits, you must have a consistent strategy.

Lúidín
Lúidín is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: tokyojoe
Old Dec 11, 2015, 5:27am   #11
Joined Nov 2014
I agree with Joe, only the right mindset will not help, of course is very important like in any endeavour we undertake but if we cannot read the charts the chances are very tiny, yes anyone can trade or have a run of successful trades, but the key lays in consistency, consistency is reached by skills, experience and also proper mindset.

Not sure if my mind or my thinking has helped me much in trading, initially the less I used it the more money I was making, the more I used it the more emotions was bringing into my trading.

“It was never my thinking that made the big money for me, it always was my sitting.” Livermore.

I think many will identify themself with their thinking and not only in trading to reinforce their trap.

"I Think Therefore I Am". Descartes

I think this last quote is full of BS, we are not what we are thinking and it can take sometime before we realise that.

Last edited by Fugazsy; Dec 11, 2015 at 11:11am.
Fugazsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: darktone
Old Dec 11, 2015, 12:20pm   #12
 
tokyojoe's Avatar
Joined May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
To be honest, no, but I don't trade every day at the moment due to personal circumstances. Let's just say I am returning to full time trading

Your post is very good, in that it asks many relevant questions, some that many might find hard to associate with.

As in all business ventures, there are always opportunities presenting themselves, which of course all will not see and act on, for variouys reasons - hence why we have a small few who make big money, as they have a knack for seeing and acting - take R.Branson for instance.

If you know the craic, then you will know that the mental aspect comes first, followed by the mechanics, of which some are far better than others, again, some of which can be seen and acted on by a few to make some good money, while most never see them for whatever reasons.

As for things going wrong, the only things that goes wrong is when the trader does not react to what is actually happening, which, is governed by his/her mental make up.

If your strategy keeps you in a losing trade for too long, then it is not a good one.

If you can not identify a strategy that allows you to exit a loser with a small loss, and have winners that are multiples of your losers, then you have not enough experience to differentiate between good and bad opportunities.

In order to achieve consistent profits, you must have a consistent strategy.

Lúidín
Thanks for your honesty Lui

Keep an eye on the pace mate, it will keep you out of trouble, you sound like you know what to look for.
tokyojoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11, 2015, 1:46pm   #13
 
Lúidín's Avatar
Joined May 2015
Lúidín started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokyojoe View Post
Thanks for your honesty Lui

Keep an eye on the pace mate, it will keep you out of trouble, you sound like you know what to look for.
If you mean Time & Sales, yes, it can be helpful to finetune entries and exits, and even more so if you plot the bid/ask with the last to see when large prints are going off above the bid, or below the ask.

I just happen to have my own T&S with tick chart of bid..ask..last..and bottom chart for volume..just upgraded my hard disk to ssd to try and improve on speed issue..as I use a laptop..which has limited processing capabilities compared to a desktop.

Lúidín
Lúidín is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11, 2015, 2:12pm   #14
 
tokyojoe's Avatar
Joined May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
If you mean Time & Sales, yes, it can be helpful to finetune entries and exits, and even more so if you plot the bid/ask with the last to see when large prints are going off above the bid, or below the ask.

I just happen to have my own T&S with tick chart of bid..ask..last..and bottom chart for volume..just upgraded my hard disk to ssd to try and improve on speed issue..as I use a laptop..which has limited processing capabilities compared to a desktop.

Lúidín
Good move, solid state is fantastic, been using for a long time, super quick.

Just for clarity I use SB as a vehicle (for a number of reasons).

I use a confluence of tf's, done away with the indicators & lines etc. The lines draw themselves when you've been looking at charts long enough.

By pace I mean just that (pace or speed) of the print. I do from time to time ensure my latency is second by second in tune with what is being sent from the SB server.

Without getting into my method, I'm just simply saying I keep an eye on the pace, too nutty & it's overtrading territory, too slow & it's chop. I have a certain pace that suits my style, & it is actually a faster pace that I prefer.
tokyojoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 11, 2015, 11:09pm   #15
 
Lúidín's Avatar
Joined May 2015
Lúidín started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by tokyojoe View Post
Good move, solid state is fantastic, been using for a long time, super quick.

Just for clarity I use SB as a vehicle (for a number of reasons).

I use a confluence of tf's, done away with the indicators & lines etc. The lines draw themselves when you've been looking at charts long enough.

By pace I mean just that (pace or speed) of the print. I do from time to time ensure my latency is second by second in tune with what is being sent from the SB server.

Without getting into my method, I'm just simply saying I keep an eye on the pace, too nutty & it's overtrading territory, too slow & it's chop. I have a certain pace that suits my style, & it is actually a faster pace that I prefer.
You must be using IG's API

When I have time I do some work on my own setup, as I have a plan to use my own trading setup with data feed via IB Gateway. There are some issues with IB in relation to data, so I might switch to TDA in the new year, as I plan to do a good bit of option trading, but have not made up my mind fully yet about TDA.

This is a test I done lately on the T&S section, and where the hard disk speed issue showed up with lag between volume shift..have changed the disk to ssd, but need to do some more testing now, which requires live data feed, as T&S section only works with live data.

I have a feeling the laptop will be too slow for normal trading, but it is fine for development and testing with small risk, as I have a good PC and several monitors for later on.

What are you trading btw?

Lúidín
Attached Thumbnails
spy-t-s_test_08dec15.png  
Lúidín is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thats too obvious for me to have taken Lord Flasheart General Trading Chat 9 Dec 16, 2011 6:19pm
Dealing with the obvious Joe Ross Psychology, Risk & Money Management 7 Dec 16, 2010 1:43am
Accentuate the obvious Joe Ross General Trading Chat 10 Dec 2, 2010 12:48am
This might be obvious ... elchulonegro First Steps 0 Jul 15, 2008 1:05pm
An obvious question but... troyresearch Educational Resources 2 Feb 27, 2001 4:17am

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)