Why Is The Obvious Not So Obvious?

This is a discussion on Why Is The Obvious Not So Obvious? within the Psychology, Risk & Money Management forums, part of the Methods category; Originally Posted by Lúidín If you ask a person for money..he will tell u f..off..if you tell him you can ...

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Old Dec 15, 2015, 11:33pm   #31
 
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Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
If you ask a person for money..he will tell u f..off..if you tell him you can help him make money..he will of course listen..but very few will ever bother to ask the obvious question..which is..can you please show me your trading record..validated by a qualified person..which..if you think about it..should be provided up front anyway..if the provider operated in a professional manner

Lúidín
It has nothing to do with asking anybody for money. Traders -- and not just beginners -- are all too eager to buy courses, software, dvds, books, memberships to trading rooms, chatrooms, newsletters and on and on. The question being asked is why they do that.

Going back to your original questions,
1. Why do people turn down good advice that can only help them save money, not cost them money!

2. Why do people keep trying to prove something where no proof is really required!

3. Why do people believe what they want to believe, without seriously considering the possible outcome of their actions!
I replied that
The psychology behind all this is not terribly complex and it has been delved into before. But the delving hasn't accomplished much, if anything, because it's always the other guy who has these -- for want of a better word -- problems. And so we go on, and one finds a sameness to it all, particularly in the journals, particularly among beginners. In fact, one who left the boards, any boards, fifteen years ago and came back today would find little difference other than the obsession with forex.
You then stated that there were two kinds of people: the first will be looking for you to part with your money..for whatever reason..the second..will not be looking for you to part with any money..and might even help you acquire some money without asking for anything in return. I added that there was a third: he who is looking for someone to whom he can give his money; this type is comprised of the vast majority of traders, new and not-so-new.

Do you want to discuss any of that? Or do you prefer yet another vendor rant?

Db
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 12:15am   #32
 
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Lúidín started this thread I was discussing it..the main point i am making..is that it will really not help a newbie that much to start giving away money to other people..just to have them show them what is already available for free..and it is all free now..for if one cares to search correctly on the net..they will find all the common knowledge they want

a newbie would be 100 times better off to use the money..no matter how small..to get some live trading experiences..as no matter what course..or mentor..they try..they will still need to master the psychological aspects of trading..which is only done by live trading

of course..if they approach the quest with stupidity..such as ignoring or understanding risk control..then they will soon discover the negative emotional aspects..and with no balance..positive..they will not last pissing time

it really is that simple..but many will have others believe otherwise..for "obviuos" reasons
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 12:28am   #33
 
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Lúidín started this thread btw..do not get me wrong..i neither like nor dislike vendors..i am just stating my opinion..after years of trading..many different markets..having read many books..bought many courses..and even paid for a 4 month live trading session..and that was the worst experience..i still kick myself in the ass for been so stupid..in fact..i was the most stupid person ever..so it is not timsk

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Old Dec 16, 2015, 2:43am   #34
 
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they will still need to master the psychological aspects of trading..which is only done by live trading
Mastering the psychological aspects of trading is accomplished by developing a thoroughly-tested and consistently-profitable trading plan and trading it with discipline. After thorough study and practice, then live trading is appropriate. And all of this can be accomplished without spending a dime.

Why, as a rule, don't newcomers do any of this? Superiority bias.

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Old Dec 16, 2015, 8:52am   #35
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Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
btw..do not get me wrong..i neither like nor dislike vendors..i am just stating my opinion..after years of trading..many different markets..having read many books..bought many courses..and even paid for a 4 month live trading session..and that was the worst experience..i still kick myself in the ass for been so stupid..in fact..i was the most stupid person ever..so it is not timsk

Lúidín
If a vendor is making money from trading and is milking the markets constantly then why become a vendor ?!

Its obvious ...
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 9:05am   #36
 
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Originally Posted by dbphoenix View Post
Mastering the psychological aspects of trading is accomplished by developing a thoroughly-tested and consistently-profitable trading plan and trading it with discipline. After thorough study and practice, then live trading is appropriate. And all of this can be accomplished without spending a dime.

Why, as a rule, don't newcomers do any of this? Superiority bias.

Db
I disagree Db..better be careful or we might have a poem

Can you show any stats to support your argument?

Let us look at another thread, that of Savius trading prop firm..quick summary which can be easily checked..in case i am off a little

Would be traders pay $200 to take the challenge..then rhey go on sim for a week or 2..if profitable on sim they get access to funds and can trade live..max loss allowed per day is $500..max drawdown allowed is $1,000..i think..when drawdown hit they have to take challenge again..it repeats with some changes..most of this is correct..but as said the nitty gritty can be easily checked in the thread

Savius has posted some stats..i think 28% make it thru to trading with them..but..i would say very few make it straight from go..why..simple..it is not the plan..as savius has a full plan trading and risk management plan..which i disagree with btw..it is because they have not enough live experience..for if they had..they would know that their biggest problem is emotional..not the plan..and..a mediocre plan will work if the trader has enough experience withproper risk management and emotional awareness..which is only got by live trading

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Old Dec 16, 2015, 9:54am   #37
 
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If a vendor is making money from trading and is milking the markets constantly then why become a vendor ?!

Its obvious ...
Well..one reason might be tax..for if the vendor is spreadbetting..he needs to have a main income source to avoid paying income tax on sb profits..which many will argue..but are just wasting their time

Teaching someone how to trade is an educational profession..and can be put down as your main income source

Other than that..the vendor will have to tell you..as i can see no other reason if the trader is making good money trading..for..why bother..trading can be stressful enough without introducing additional stress

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Old Dec 16, 2015, 10:47am   #38
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Well..one reason might be tax..for if the vendor is spreadbetting..he needs to have a main income source to avoid paying income tax on sb profits..which many will argue..but are just wasting their time

Teaching someone how to trade is an educational profession..and can be put down as your main income source

Other than that..the vendor will have to tell you..as i can see no other reason if the trader is making good money trading..for..why bother..trading can be stressful enough without introducing additional stress

Lúidín
A spread bettor vendor what could be worse ?!
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 12:00pm   #39
 
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Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post
I disagree Db..better be careful or we might have a poem

Can you show any stats to support your argument?

Let us look at another thread, that of Savius trading prop firm..quick summary which can be easily checked..in case i am off a little

Would be traders pay $200 to take the challenge..then rhey go on sim for a week or 2..if profitable on sim they get access to funds and can trade live..max loss allowed per day is $500..max drawdown allowed is $1,000..i think..when drawdown hit they have to take challenge again..it repeats with some changes..most of this is correct..but as said the nitty gritty can be easily checked in the thread

Savius has posted some stats..i think 28% make it thru to trading with them..but..i would say very few make it straight from go..why..simple..it is not the plan..as savius has a full plan trading and risk management plan..which i disagree with btw..it is because they have not enough live experience..for if they had..they would know that their biggest problem is emotional..not the plan..and..a mediocre plan will work if the trader has enough experience withproper risk management and emotional awareness..which is only got by live trading

Lúidín
Whether or not Savius has a plan is irrelevant, even if it is thoroughly tested and consistently profitable. No one is going to trade someone else's plan with confidence. If they trade it at all, they will do so at least somewhat fearfully. Trading it "live" will not assuage that fear. This can be seen by reading the various threads, particularly journals, here and elsewhere.

If you're interested in this subject, you may want to read the article I wrote for T2W.

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Old Dec 16, 2015, 12:05pm   #40
 
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Originally Posted by Lúidín View Post

Other than that..the vendor will have to tell you..as i can see no other reason if the trader is making good money trading..for..why bother..trading can be stressful enough without introducing additional stress
Some people, as they near the end of their lives, feel compelled to share what they have learned in the hope that others might benefit. I was such a beneficiary, and my book is an attempt to "pay it forward". Those who feel that my time is worthless and don't want to pay the 35 bucks can get the same information for free by reading my posts, beginning with 1998. Their choice.

Done here.

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Old Dec 16, 2015, 12:26pm   #41
 
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Some people, as they near the end of their lives, feel compelled to share what they have learned in the hope that others might benefit. I was such a beneficiary, and my book is an attempt to "pay it forward". Those who feel that my time is worthless and don't want to pay the 35 bucks can get the same information for free by reading my posts, beginning with 1998. Their choice.

Done here.

Db
Well u can't argue with that..as 35 bucks is nothing..if it was a few hundred it would be different..as mentioned..i am doing the same as you..sharing my experiences..in the way i see fit..based on what i did..and did not do over the years

I do not put all vendors in the same basket..but most do it for the money..of course..but most charge way too much..i think so anyway

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Old Dec 16, 2015, 12:27pm   #42
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Surely sharing is a good thing but it has to be for free otherwise it wont be called sharing , which will leads us back to the previous question why a good successful trader is looking to be paid few quids for his hard work ?
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Old Dec 16, 2015, 1:13pm   #43
 
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Surely sharing is a good thing but it has to be for free otherwise it wont be called sharing , which will leads us back to the previous question why a good successful trader is looking to be paid few quids for his hard work ?
I do not have any issue with someone charging money..providing they first produce verified trading results..in fact..i would expect them to charge a substantial amount..as what they are doing is obviously worth money

i am not backtracking..as even if you can find such a person..there is no guarantee that you can replicate what he does exactly..unless you do exactly as he does..which you probably won't..due to your psychological make up

i know of one such instance..and..it turned out exactly as i have said

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Old Dec 16, 2015, 5:21pm   #44
 
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just getting our emotions in check is the key. anyone can learn technical skills, few of us discipline our emotions enough to do it successfully. 90% of trading is emotions.
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Old Dec 17, 2015, 8:32pm   #45
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just getting our emotions in check is the key. anyone can learn technical skills, few of us discipline our emotions enough to do it successfully. 90% of trading is emotions.
In the battle between emotions and the mind, emotions usually win. in the battle between the conscious and subconscious mind, the subconscious always wins.

That's the problem - what lies in your subconscious and by very definition, you can't know otherwise it would not be SUB conscious. So it's not a question of getting your emotions 'in check'. Although it might make it a little better...

Practically everyone has a greater or lesser degree of subconscious self destruct urges and this is what kills traders. After all, if you truly believed you could be rich without working, you would be by now (assuming you are at least in your 20s).

You can't take an average 9 to 5 slave worker who has been brainwashed by 'education', the media and probably parents to believe that they have to work hard and suffer to climb the career ladder (and get in debt) and expected them to make even $1,000 a week trading (easy money without real work).

Once you change those belief systems then you can happily wake up Monday morning having earned enough for the week while you were sleeping...

Then, instead of the problem being not enough money, it becomes too much money!
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