Honest Advice for a Graduate

I know that there are some professional traders that frequent these forums and i am looking for some honest advice about the industry and becoming a trader or broker.

I have graduated from University in the UK with a 2:1 in business. In all honesty i spent a lot of my youth fooling around and never took a serious approach until i went to university. my A level results are sub par, achieving C,C,C.

I am currently learning everything there is about trading, the markets. I wanted to be a trader since i was young after doing some work experience with a successful IB whilst at school. Unfortunately as i said, i messed around during my teens and so due to poor results, went to a mediocre uni and it was only then i bucked up my ideas.

With this information, what is the likelihood of me ever even getting close to working for an IB, hedgefund or any firm in the industry? I dont mind if i have to work for free initially or even as a scrub right at the bottom getting coffee, as long as eventually i receive training in the field.

I am even considering resitting some A levels in economics, Maths and English as im sure with my new attitude i could achieve A* results. The only problem is i am 23 so time is certainly a factor here.

One bonus is i speak portuguese and am looking to learn spanish too.

Sorry for the huge essay, honest feedback is appreciated

I'm pretty much in the same boat here, however still at University (UK). Any feedback here would be really helpful.

And good luck to you ^^^ Keep us posted.

Phil

Get internships, forget about retaking A levels they are a waste of time. Some of the banks do not allow for resits and the rest don't care so much. Do something more productive with your time, A levels are a step backwards.

My advice would be to go for fund management, pensions or hedge funds - try to get a job in these industries where the competition would not be so fierce - and with that experience behind you the IBs would be far more interested in you. A little bit of lateral thinking is required here - get yourself in a financial industry, bag a couple of years experience and then take a step sideways to the job you want.

I think at 23 you would find it hard to start at an IB as a graduate with poor results behind you, the competition is so fierce at the moment.

I disagree about the age being an issue, I am also 23 and there are many interns that are older especially during this period.

Hoggums said:

My advice would be to go for fund management, pensions or hedge funds - try to get a job in these industries where the competition would not be so fierce - and with that experience behind you the IBs would be far more interested in you. A little bit of lateral thinking is required here - get yourself in a financial industry, bag a couple of years experience and then take a step sideways to the job you want.

I think at 23 you would find it hard to start at an IB as a graduate with poor results behind you, the competition is so fierce at the moment.

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Epic advice as usual from T2W. Fund management is many times more competitive than IB. One well-known grad scheme in asset management got nearly 1000 apps for 2 positions.

To the OP, your first problem is that your not being clear about what you want. If you want to be a trader, your in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is a significant preference for people with maths-related backgrounds as that is where the most profitable products are now and areas that don't require this are in decline. You could try inter-dealer broking, this is an area I don't know much about but it is significantly less competitive. Another idea is back office but the transfer to front office is rarely made.

If you want to be in general "investment management" you should do IMC/CFA or try and get into accountancy (I suspect with your A-levels you won't get into Big4). Having said that, it is very hard to a get job in investment management through grad schemes atm and if you don't know people your **** out of luck.

Basically tho, given your background your not going to get into anywhere that has a graduate scheme/HR department so your going to have make something happen yourself. It is a waste of time doing A-levels as well, professional qualifications are more worthwhile. About your age, it isn't a problem some places only do internships with graduates, it isn't unusual given how many people want jobs in this area.

cr6196 said:

Fund management is many times more competitive than IB.

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Wrong !

I have an interview for a year-long placement as a Trainee Equity Dealer next week. If all goes well and I get the job, how easy (generally speaking) would it be to go from broking to trading?

Thanks
Phil

cr6196 said:

Fund management is many times more competitive than IB

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Hoggums said:

Wrong !

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Put up or shut up you mugs... stats that is.

As a job seeker though I can tell you that 1000 apps is hardly surprising for any half decent job these days, cr.

And Hoggy - Can I call you Hoggy? - FM is fierce as fook right now cos the job is rightly or wrongly deemed more stable. Pulling down 100k ain't too shabby four/five years out of uni either. No figures though.

All my experience is based outside of London btw - that place is a jungle.


@ Slowly - have look at student2trader and have you considered at jobs in gibraltar

Trader or a Broker?

That's a bit like saying you want to work in the restaurant biz and want to be a chef or a waiter...

You need to get educated on the specific roles IMO. Figure out what you want to do, it's not all bright lights...

Both the grads.
I would drop this new found goal. You cant just switch on at your mediocre uni, get a 2.1 (not even a 1st) and then expect all to be forgiven. Too little too late.

Banks or any city institution has the pick of the top 1% of all global grads and they pick well. If you arent from Oxbridge (or foreign equiv) it's tough. If it's not a top 10 uni it's very tough and if it's below top 50. No ****ing chance.

If you do get a job. It'll be a shocker and dont expect to "impress and climb". That was in the 80s when everyone was a millionaire and computers were revolutionary.

My "helpful" advice to you and what I deem your only choice. Do a 2nd degree (MSc or Phd) at a better university. After that, your academics might get you thru HR's random "throw in the bin everything not from LSE, Oxford, Cambridge, then throw in the bin everything not Maths or quant related, then divide into 2 heaps and throw 2nd heap in bin". The remaining 20 applicants will be interviewed.

D70 said:

My "helpful" advice to you and what I deem your only choice. Do a 2nd degree (MSc or Phd) at a better university. After that, your academics might get you thru HR's random "throw in the bin everything not from LSE, Oxford, Cambridge, then throw in the bin everything not Maths or quant related, then divide into 2 heaps and throw 2nd heap in bin". The remaining 20 applicants will be interviewed.

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Hilarious. I think a bit of lateral movement, luck and networking are the keys nowadays for mere mortals as far as fund managing is concerned i.e. getting into RE funds or some other such slightly more boring asset class then moving to a junior position somewhere you want to be, given the MSc route is taken I mean. Try work your way up from there?

lol!

harsh but true....

"dear T2W, I spent my late teens sniffing airfix glue and flunked my A-levels, I then moved on to Uni where I discovered weed and ecstasy and I scraped a degree with attendance grades. You couldn't fail to notice all the news of late that people in the financial industry get huge bonuses and retire at 30 for doing bugger all. I think I would be suited for that. I don't know the difference between a broker and a trader but hey, I heard even the secretaries get millions, so any old job will do. Can you please tell me how to get in?"

DionysusToast said:

lol!

harsh but true....

"dear T2W, I spent my late teens sniffing airfix glue and flunked my A-levels, I then moved on to Uni where I discovered weed and ecstasy and I scraped a degree with attendance grades. You couldn't fail to notice all the news of late that people in the financial industry get huge bonuses and retire at 30 for doing bugger all. I think I would be suited for that. I don't know the difference between a broker and a trader but hey, I heard even the secretaries get millions, so any old job will do. Can you please tell me how to get in?"

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I quite like the Vidal Sassoon quote. Something along the lines of "It's only in a dictionary that success comes before work"

scose-no-doubt said:

Put up or shut up you mugs... stats that is.

As a job seeker though I can tell you that 1000 apps is hardly surprising for any half decent job these days, cr.

And Hoggy - Can I call you Hoggy? - FM is fierce as fook right now cos the job is rightly or wrongly deemed more stable. Pulling down 100k ain't too shabby four/five years out of uni either. No figures though.

All my experience is based outside of London btw - that place is a jungle.


@ Slowly - have look at student2trader and have you considered at jobs in gibraltar

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Basically, if you don't know, you don't know. Talk to someone in the industry, you can't get stats. There is a reason why some AM places only take people from IB/accountancy because these people are easy to find. Moreover, there is a reason why a lot of the jobs in AM only get advertised at Oxbridge or not all, because it isn't hard to hire these people. Whilst some IBs, like Rothschild, do this as well, it is mostly AM places.

Moreover, anyone in AM who runs a grad scheme will tell you that the average applicant is far higher quality than IB, this year a lot of people have had years in related work or Oxbridge/Ivy under and post-grad. Finally, there have been a mass of firings. People have realized that you can make more money, far quicker in AM (it is far more stable as well).

Anecdotally, if you look at a lot of people running money in AM, most couldn't get in at the grad level and most agree this is the toughest market in a long time. One guy told me he has had fund managers with years of experience offer to work for free. Most people think the industry is much smaller, makes far less money, and hires far less people than it actually does tho.

Also CFA/IMC>doing work>second degree. Again, most in the industry consider the CFA, rightly or wrongly, to be equivalent to undergrad in econ. I spoke to well-known manager who said he would hire an 18 year-old with a CFA over a grad, hypothetically...depends where you want to work though. Sounds like inter-dealer broker would be better.

Agree CFA is a good ticket to hold but you 2 aspiring "traders". It's 3 years of hard study. It goes beyond degree level.

Good luck.

ha Thanks for everyones input. Especially D70..

I'll clear up my position:

I didn't flunk A levels, did pretty badly (3 C's). I study Economics: Money, Banking and Finance at the largest business school in the South of England, and Im on course for a 1st.
In a couple months I will have some experience working for a traders on the London Metal Exchange, then for a Bank in their Trading division.
My course at uni involves a year in industry, obviously traders don't offer this, so Ive found a position as a stockbrokers assistant which is excellent market exposure.
Further to this, I have learnt a fair bit of technical analysis strategies:
-Support/Resistance
-Tramlines
-Bollinger Bands
-Head & Shoulders pattern
-Elliot Waves
-etc.....

I so far have the experience simply through networking, Im the kind of person who has the drive, and the intelligence to back it up. I know words are cheap, but time will tell..

Will have a look into CFA so thanks for that idea. I heard Mountbatten do something in trading as well, is this true (can't find it on the website) if so, what are peoples thoughts on these types of academies?

Thanks for any feedback
Phil

A range of conflicting thoughts and personal opinions:

-Don't do it, get a proper skill, become a plumber
-Don't work for free, ever.
-Depending on where you are looking to work keep the TA stuff under your hat, not many people take it that seriously.
-I don't like the LME it is not a proper exchange.
-I think there's a misunderstanding of what different roles within trading entail at present.
-I think the role of a trader is currently being re-defined to the extent that many new entrants are not equipped for it. If i was running a serious firm i would much rather get an computer scientist guy in, send him on some short courses and hey presto he can make me mullah quicker than an econ/business/banking grad.
-Maybe specialise in an area right from the off, like the physical trade side of the commodities business. That will require a lot of hard work studying documentation etc, and an extensive understanding of the market and distribution networks but would be much more secure (from automation) and potentially lucrative in the long run.

Thanks for your reply RPEX,

What makes you say the LME isn't a proper exchange?

Goldmember21 said:

Thanks for your reply RPEX,

What makes you say the LME isn't a proper exchange?

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Can't remember excatly but some time ago someone explained how their contracts differ from normal futures & options such that there are 3 parties+ the exchange to every trade, more palms get crossed with my hard earned. Plus the fact that all the banks run the warehouses make it not a good place for small speculators or liquidity providers. I've spoke to a few people who worked there at some point and they all say its a bit of an old boys club. I'm sure its great for the trade and you'll have a good time though, will be an experience. But i wouldn't be surprised if one of your daily duties was to warm up your master's toilet seat.