Traders like us

I was just chatting to a mate who lives the other half of the world away, about life for "traders like us".

I am sure he won't mind my repeating here a litle part of what I wrote:

Hi *****

I am in a similar position to yourself time-wise - still on the night-shift grind
where sleep, work, family and trading somehow have to mean I am running a
balanced life.

Clearly (to me) it is anything but balanced.

My idea of balance, is to make my trading my work and thus remove one of the
big four from my time-management schedule. That alone would reduce the
pressure traders like us frequently feel.

This thread is for "traders like us" to share the conditions they live under, the obstacles to their trading, the difficulties in trying to balance work, family, sleep and trading, and I have left out other external activities like vacatons, movie outings, playing in the park, and exercise generally.

Let's face it - many of us are slowly changing shape physically, and it is probably down to the years we have spent sitting on our big fat acres in front of the trading screens. Regular exercise and physical fitness is "for the future once I get trading nailed" ... right?

Why do we persist?

Because we have hope.

Well - in a word I suppose that's probably part of it.
No doubt we all have our reasons.

"Hope" that our trading will eventually become so profitable that is will replace our 9-to-5 and thus make our vocation our vacation. And all the wonderfull boats, fast cars, holidays in the Canary Isles, snow-ski trips to NZ, shown in the "trade FX in 25 minutes with this whiz-bang method, and the riches of Croesus will be yours" advertisements, will come to pass.

Maybe I exaggereate, but you get the drift.
And the advertisers know how to press our "hope" buttons, don't they?

For some, simply making an extra $200/week is success.
Others want the full teddy - income replacement.

It takes real gonads to get there, and then skill to keep there.
But I think there is more to trading than just a man and a desk and an Internet connection.

What about the "whole" man ... the life of the "person" you are, and I am?

There are things like the neglect of your beautiful bride/beau!
Is that going to be worth it - or is that going to be too much sacrifice to endure?

What about the kids - are you an absentee dad because of your trading time?
After all you are "doing it for them" so they shouldn't bother you about going to the park and flying the kite this afternoon ... right?

And are you burning the candle at both ends with your sleep-time?
Are you sufficiently rested to give the boss who pays your wages 100% of the time he pays you for?
Are you performing to the peak the boss expected when he hired you?

And finally yourself ... are you extracting the pleasure you hoped for from your trading?
Do you feel you are on the right track anyway?

"Trading from Home" is not what it's cracked up to be - I sometimes wish I had a shed or an office so I could have the isolation I need to trade "better".

But that's a cop-out probably - if I were any good, I should be able to trade in a pub at peak hour, right?

Is your life, your trading environment and your peace of mind what you hoped it would be after the time you have become involved in this thing called "trading"?

Have you become a slave to the next best thing in trading, but like the taxi below, success is taking its time to arrive?

What's it about?

Ingot54 said:

I was just chatting to a mate who lives the other half of the world away, about life for "traders like us".

I am sure he won't mind my repeating here a little part of what I wrote:

Hi *****

I am in a similar position to yourself time-wise - still on the night-shift grind
where sleep, work, family and trading somehow have to mean I am running a
balanced life.

Clearly (to me) it is anything but balanced.

My idea of balance, is to make my trading my work and thus remove one of the
big four from my time-management schedule. That alone would reduce the
pressure traders like us frequently feel.

This thread is for "traders like us" to share the conditions they live under, the obstacles to their trading, the difficulties in trying to balance work, family, sleep and trading, and I have left out other external activities like vacations, movie outings, playing in the park, and exercise generally.

Let's face it - many of us are slowly changing shape physically, and it is probably down to the years we have spent sitting on our big fat acres in front of the trading screens. Regular exercise and physical fitness is "for the future once I get trading nailed" ... right?

Click to expand...

Last night I rang a mate to confirm whether we were still getting together this Sunday. He lives about 2 hours drive away, and so we don't get to see much of each other, and trading discussion is limited to phone/email.

I was quite shocked by the state in which I found him at the other end of the phone.

He had some niggling health problems beset him recently, and so decided to get himself back into peak nick, and lose some weight as well. After losing about 12kg, and spending quite a bit of time at the gym working out, he lost the weight easily enough, but developed a serious cardiac arrhythmia.

The problem was not only occasional palpitations, but a really irregular heart-beat that he could feel, and which he describes as a weird "thumping" in his chest that is very disquieting for him. "My heart is all over the place" he told me.

As a nurse, I know that if it had not killed him already, it was probably not going to, and he breathed a sigh of relief at that.

But while I am not a cardiologist, I do know that there are medications that can control an erratic heart-rate and rhythm. And I am aware that there are many causes, from a thyroid that is playing up a tad, to electrical conduction defects, to tiny foci of irritation within the cardiac muscle, to an excess of free adrenalin in circulation due to stress, to many other things which include Magnesium and Potassium imbalances yada yada.

His problem can be corrected, and he will probably outlive me!

Who really cares!

But what he said during the phone call really did set me back and consider what I am doing with trading. His words to me were:

"Forget about trading mate. Look after your health. Once your health goes, you've got nothing. And trading won't interest you."

I can still hear those words ringing in my ears.

He is right - I have gotten it back-to-front. For the past 5 years ... nearly 6 now ... I have been "giving myself a second apprenticeship" as I attempted to train myself for trading for a living. It took me 3 years to train as a Reg Nurse, followed a few years later by another year to get a midwifery endorsement. That began 25 years ago. Why shouldn't I take some time to get some education in trading? It would be a good way to get away from nursing and the endless requirement to work shifts.

So every waking and spare moment I have had over the past 6 years, has had me at the computer scanning the Internet and forums, systems, indicators, and methodologies, learning TA and FA and "armchair economics" as espoused by the popular newsletters and conspiracy writers alike, so that I have an "every-man's view" of the world of finance.

The best I can come up with is that there are "big" traders and manipulators "out there" making the financial world move, and that lately instead of allowing the thing to collapse and then begin again without the weak-links, we have some kind of manipulation keeping it afloat, to which I am not privy.

Am I a better trader for all this research and time/experience in charting techniques/indicators etc? Probably not at all. In fact if you asked my to find a trade this week where I could guarantee to find 30 pips, I couldn't do it with certainty.

Maybe my mate is correct - maybe I'll never make it - after all, I have had nearly 6 years to make my living from it.

All I have really done is learn the language traders use. I am fluent in "trades-speak" and can write about it until the next generation arrives, complete with iPod!

And every day I believe I am getting closer to the ultimate day of consistent, winning trades.

Meanwhile, I have gained weight, and tired myself out with sleep-debt over an extended time, so that I can no longer relax and simply take some time away from trading issues. Something is driving me to press forward until I "make it" whatever that means.

Will I toss it in?

No. And I doubt my mate will either.

He'll get things under control with his ticker shortly, and it may well be "back to business" for him.

It's food for thought, isn't it?

Is trading ... or "pretend trading" really what we were born for?
Is this all there is - an incessant pursuit of a carrot that is always getting closer, but never quite arriving?

Who's the donkey here?

Hi Ingot54,
Good idea for a thread.
Learning to trade can take its toll, as can learning anything but as it takes time its inevitable that time will have its effect whether you learn to trade or not. Meanhwile the point your mate makes is good....
Keep yourself healthy. Even 20 minutes exercise / raised heart rate a day is better than nothing and will have beneficial effect.
Also trading will make an impact into family life, but look atthe long term. You will ned a pension or income in older age, trading is a flexible way to achieve that...time spent learnign to trade might otherwise be spent doing overtime to increase your pension pot..so swings and roundabouts.
As for actual trading, I sometimes find when I sit and look at the screen whilst in a trade I get exercise from a natural raise in heart rate anyway!
So i stick to daily and 4 hour bars to try to give me time away from being glued to the screen.Not that it always works...I work right in front of my screen anyway.

I've enjoyed reading your thread/2 posts, however, I honestly don't recognise myself in the description. I do agree with the health issues you raise. I'm 45 but can honestly pass as mid 30's, I'm not a gym rat, half my exercise is outdoors, but have (even through my excessive 20's - 30's) always pushed myself physically in a 'belief' that if you get that right everything else may fall into place - it's a probability thing.

Here's a thing, how often, when we lose a loved one or close friend suddenly, do we 'promise' ourselves that each day from now on in will be lived to the full? Yet within a day/s we slip back into our 'patterns'...We are what we are, why not embrace it rather than attempt to change it? Far too much energy is taken up by folk projecting an image of themselves, of how they will be/should be in order to achieve/chase the dream when in reality (similar to finding a trading strat. that works) only v.small changes are needed to get life in balance.

What's my proudest achievement? Being a v. good parent to my 3 kids over their combined 39 years and that has nothing to do with material gain. By giving them quantity time, as opposed to the mythical "quality time" I 'know' my kids and that feels great...

I'm now at that age were I can compare myself to friends and family members who have 'achieved' so much more than me in terms of possessions; baubles and trinkets that comfort them when they have doubts regarding the path they've taken and its impact on family life. Without a trace of envy or smugness I'm confident that we've made the right choices because of where we are right now as a tight family unit.

And on the subject of family, trading has fitted seamlessly into my home life and in some respects the kids have helped with that. My eldest lad is keen as mustard to learn and my Daughter is v. supportive, the littlest pulls my leg about the "dollar yen and cable"

Let's be honest, even as an intermediate skill level trader you shouldn't be missing your set ups unless you're away or out for the day, you certainly can't blame your decision making on distraction caused at home.

In summary trading should be working for you in all aspects of your life. I see folk, even now, taking on leases to set up pilates classes/dance classes/niche restaurants... underpinned by business plans that mightn't reap fruit for 3 years (if ever) given how linked to the overall performance of the economy they are. In comparison we have an opportunity here to start a business, (or continue in business) rent free, obligation free, tax free (for some) from such a low capital base it's scary. Twinned with that the excess liquidity created over the past year ensures our business is destined for massive growth. And if it isn't destined for growth then surely the ability to adapt, that you've gained as a skilled trader, can be easily transferred as a skill to other industries..

The upside of this 'business' is ultimate and IMHO it doesn't take that much change to grasp the opportunity...

Funny you mention the health/exercise thing. For all of my life I have participated in competitive sports (mainly cycling and running), but in the last year I have done nothing at all as I have been using spare time to learn to trade. As it's my 40th next year I can also feel how my body is deteriorating. I am missing exercising and understand the positive psycholigical impact it has on me but the problem for me is there are not enough hours in the day - time is my most precious commodity.

I think I lie somewhere between BS and Ingot. My Mrs has said she's not that interested in me banging on about market's so it really has become quite s lonely pursuit and the only place where I can talk about it is here on T2W.

Nice to see some humanity turning up on here as well as lulz.

Trading "Lite"

Interesting thread guys.

We are taught all our lives that the more effort we put into something, the greater the reward and in trading from home this can mean the more hours we spend in front of our charts the more pips we will make.

For me anyway, this is not good and the few days when I have been back and fore to my desk all day long, not getting anything else done, I have felt so unhealthy, "sad" and guilty as my dog would be lying at the door waiting (yet again) for his walk!

My husband has been very supportive about my trading but after months of spending all day thinking and talking about it, I had to change a few things.

I only trade for an hour in the morning (0630-0730-ish London Open) and half an hour before going to bed. I place orders then walk away, switch MT4 off, do other stuff.

Granted, my husband has to put up with me getting up an hour earlier than him 4-5 days a week (don't always trade Fridays) and thereby misses his weekday morning nookie. This is a small price to pay in my opinion (there are always weekends ), if I had a job that meant I had to get up early, but earned a decent wage, there'd be no problem would there?

I spend the rest of the day doing my other (self-employed, part-time) work, looking after my little girl, and spending as much time outside as possible.

True, I miss hell of a lot of set ups, see at 2200hrs how the trade I closed out for +20 with a limit order in the morning has moved a further 200 pips in the afternoon, but that is the price I pay for having a life outside trading. As long as I make my target most weeks, I have to walk away and not mind all the pips I have left on the table.

Still, putting it all into perspective, what's wrong with only wanting to work for 1-2 hours a day?

Also, I no longer talk to my family about trading as they find it very boring and don't get it, hence being here on T2W!

Happy trading folks and remember there's nothing wrong with switching the Puter off and going for a walk...

Julie

Black Swan said:

I've enjoyed reading your thread/2 posts, however, I honestly don't recognise myself in the description. I do agree with the health issues you raise. I'm 45 but can honestly pass as mid 30's, I'm not a gym rat, half my exercise is outdoors, but have (even through my excessive 20's - 30's) always pushed myself physically in a 'belief' that if you get that right everything else may fall into place - it's a probability thing.

Here's a thing, how often, when we lose a loved one or close friend suddenly, do we 'promise' ourselves that each day from now on in will be lived to the full? Yet within a day/s we slip back into our 'patterns'...We are what we are, why not embrace it rather than attempt to change it? Far too much energy is taken up by folk projecting an image of themselves, of how they will be/should be in order to achieve/chase the dream when in reality (similar to finding a trading strat. that works) only v.small changes are needed to get life in balance.

What's my proudest achievement? Being a v. good parent to my 3 kids over their combined 39 years and that has nothing to do with material gain. By giving them quantity time, as opposed to the mythical "quality time" I 'know' my kids and that feels great...

I'm now at that age were I can compare myself to friends and family members who have 'achieved' so much more than me in terms of possessions; baubles and trinkets that comfort them when they have doubts regarding the path they've taken and its impact on family life. Without a trace of envy or smugness I'm confident that we've made the right choices because of where we are right now as a tight family unit.

And on the subject of family, trading has fitted seamlessly into my home life and in some respects the kids have helped with that. My eldest lad is keen as mustard to learn and my Daughter is v. supportive, the littlest pulls my leg about the "dollar yen and cable"

Let's be honest, even as an intermediate skill level trader you shouldn't be missing your set ups unless you're away or out for the day, you certainly can't blame your decision making on distraction caused at home.

In summary trading should be working for you in all aspects of your life. I see folk, even now, taking on leases to set up pilates classes/dance classes/niche restaurants... underpinned by business plans that mightn't reap fruit for 3 years (if ever) given how linked to the overall performance of the economy they are. In comparison we have an opportunity here to start a business, (or continue in business) rent free, obligation free, tax free (for some) from such a low capital base it's scary. Twinned with that the excess liquidity created over the past year ensures our business is destined for massive growth. And if it isn't destined for growth then surely the ability to adapt, that you've gained as a skilled trader, can be easily transferred as a skill to other industries..

The upside of this 'business' is ultimate and IMHO it doesn't take that much change to grasp the opportunity...

Click to expand...

Nice post Mr Black Swan, and for what it's worth, I'd always imagined you were much younger than 45, and I mean this in a good way ... you seem to have an optimistic outlook or something. Usually I make the other mistake on T2W, thinking people are middle-aged grizzled city men from way back and they turn out to be 23, or in certain cases, schoolboys. You are right about the family. My greatest achievements are my "children" of 28 and 30....well ok my wife had a hand in this somewhere, and you are right about "quantity time". We didn't go out anywhere when they were young unless they went with us. Totally boring sods, which is probably what our kids think we are, but we are reliable boring sods, and I think they find, and found, this quite reassuring over the years.

A structured view?

montmorencyt2w said:

Nice post Mr Black Swan, and for what it's worth, I'd always imagined you were much younger than 45, and I mean this in a good way ... you seem to have an optimistic outlook or something. Usually I make the other mistake on T2W, thinking people are middle-aged grizzled city men from way back and they turn out to be 23, or in certain cases, schoolboys. You are right about the family. My greatest achievements are my "children" of 28 and 30....well ok my wife had a hand in this somewhere, and you are right about "quantity time". We didn't go out anywhere when they were young unless they went with us. Totally boring sods, which is probably what our kids think we are, but we are reliable boring sods, and I think they find, and found, this quite reassuring over the years.

Click to expand...

Some great replies here - thanks for sharing.

It must be peculiar to the human species, but I think many of us relate to the "I-was-fitter-when-I-was-younger" situation. I am soon turning 60, but look like early 50's too. I put that down to being a timber cutter until my 30's, nursing since then (sheltered physically) but maintained fitness through basketball and daily training for Fun Runs (ran the Terry Fox 10km in 44 mins and 14 seconds when I was 40.)

So to that extent I am a has-been!

But I really think what happened in my case, is that I found interests to which I could apply myself with equal vigour to my previous physical endeavours. Consequently the much-loved exercise and sporting interests slid slowly beneath the waves, as the titanic of trading rose before me like a mountain to be conquered.

What I am seeing here with some responses, is recognition of the importance of exercise in daily life, as well as the importance of family. I think this is a fairly broad consensus - ties in with Maslow's hierarchy of needs -: http://www.businessballs.com/maslow.htm in that we tend to put the most energy into the things that we perceive will bring us the greatest return, after our lower scale needs have been met.

I think stressors appear when we try to skip a rung or two of the ladder, or at least spend disproportionate time on higher rungs of the ladder to the neglect of more basic needs. Trying to stay at the top level all the time, is definitely unbalanced, yet people like myself sometimes do that, until the basic needs beneath self-actualisation tug at us for attention.

It comes back to discipline, I think.

I imagine there are traders here who have lost marriages because of their desire to succeed at trading, to the neglect of their relationships. To allow this to happen at the relationship level, points to an even greater neglect at the physical level - given that human beings are basically selfish and self-preserving as a basic instinct, if you like.

I would never want to lose my marriage, and I am blessed in that while my wife does not understand trading the way I see it, she does approve of my involvement and is actively trying to make it easier for me now, after nearly 6 years of trying.

But she does point out to me the need to keep myself fit. We have a treadmill, and she has put it 1.5 metres away from my desk!

Glyder and Jel31 make the points that the longer term benefit is a valid reason to persist, and that trading CAN be worked in and around family needs, if the desire is there to do that.

Love to hear more views from traders like us.

More on Maslow ...

http://www.deepermind.com/20maslow.htm

and of course ... there is YouTube! (3.06 mins)

Time..................

I wouldn't be too worried about 6yrs Ingot.

I have been particularly lucky. It has taken me about 1yr to reach consistent profitability. It's been a difficult year as you accurately describe my circumstances of the juggling of family time, work, trading and other pursuits. Nevertheless, I see light at the end of the tunnel even if I have put a little weight on and would struggle to run 10k in under an hour right now rather than 45mins.

In spite of this, Virtuos0 made some points in another thread aimed at a newb about the time and effort you need to put into trading and it being no different to any other profession. He made an analogy between somebody deciding to become a lawyer, reading a dummies guide, going on an internet forum and sticking a sign up on their door with 'my chamberz' vs somebody who does their degree, does their bar, joins a chambers and over time reaching the top of their profession. Although it was a humorous response, it was poignant and concise.

My background is in engineering. I've been doing it for 20yrs now. I am without wanting to sound big-headed, very good at it. It is second nature for me as I have 20yrs of knowledge and expertise to draw on. It's why people pay me handsomely to do things - they know they're getting someone who know's what they are doing.

If I look back now at what I knew and what I did with regards to engineering 19yrs ago I can say that I was shakily competent but I lacked any depth of experience, was missing loads of contextual knowledge, was prone to making schoolboy errors but showed promise. By Yr5 I had enough knowledge to be useful to other people but still didn't understand all the ropes. By Yr10 I knew about how the business worked and by Yr12 everything is pretty easy. All this on a full time basis.

So, I am under no illusion that this is a long game, probably 3-4yrs for me to make a transition at best. Perhaps something might happen in my life that forces this to happen a little quicker, but my point is that this is something you should not rush and time and patience will eventually win. Knowledge and experience don't come for free.

With all the respect you deserve me, i agree with black swan.
Once i read, i dont remember where, in these forum, that the same way you treat the market the market will treat you, i understand it all depends on a method, as anything in these life.
Maybe you have not done your full homework.

Pay attention to these.

:smart:Very good advice mate!

robster970 said:

I wouldn't be too worried about 6yrs Ingot.

I have been particularly lucky. It has taken me about 1yr to reach consistent profitability. It's been a difficult year as you accurately describe my circumstances of the juggling of family time, work, trading and other pursuits. Nevertheless, I see light at the end of the tunnel even if I have put a little weight on and would struggle to run 10k in under an hour right now rather than 45mins.

In spite of this, Virtuos0 made some points in another thread aimed at a newb about the time and effort you need to put into trading and it being no different to any other profession. He made an analogy between somebody deciding to become a lawyer, reading a dummies guide, going on an internet forum and sticking a sign up on their door with 'my chamberz' vs somebody who does their degree, does their bar, joins a chambers and over time reaching the top of their profession. Although it was a humorous response, it was poignant and concise.

My background is in engineering. I've been doing it for 20yrs now. I am without wanting to sound big-headed, very good at it. It is second nature for me as I have 20yrs of knowledge and expertise to draw on. It's why people pay me handsomely to do things - they know they're getting someone who know's what they are doing.

If I look back now at what I knew and what I did with regards to engineering 19yrs ago I can say that I was shakily competent but I lacked any depth of experience, was missing loads of contextual knowledge, was prone to making schoolboy errors but showed promise. By Yr5 I had enough knowledge to be useful to other people but still didn't understand all the ropes. By Yr10 I knew about how the business worked and by Yr12 everything is pretty easy. All this on a full time basis.

So, I am under no illusion that this is a long game, probably 3-4yrs for me to make a transition at best. Perhaps something might happen in my life that forces this to happen a little quicker, but my point is that this is something you should not rush and time and patience will eventually win. Knowledge and experience don't come for free.

Click to expand...