Give Up ?

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Old Dec 2, 2008, 1:35pm   #16
 
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Candles: Interesting - Where do you trade for only 5p per point?

I know that some SB firms allow small stakes for new accounts, but of the 2 I've tried who do, it was at most for a few weeks, not months (i.e. not really long enough). (And I didn't really like to keep opening new accounts. I currently have 4 as it is, and this is quite enough!).

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Old Dec 2, 2008, 1:38pm   #17
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Abn Amro
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 1:41pm   #18
 
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Originally Posted by advfntrader View Post
well thats my problem then !

"if at 1st you don't suceed try, try again "
Don't risk another penny until you can answer these questions:

1) Why am I trading? Don't just say "to make money" - that is what everyone says and believe me it is not the reason everyone trades!!

- Are you looking for something exciting to drag you away from a mundane working life?

- Are you looking for something to "legitimately" fulfill a gambling instinct? (the wife may get on your case if she knows you are visiting Ladbrokes but she probably won't if you say you are learning to trade/invest)

- Are you looking to prove a point to someone in some way? I know someone that divorced from his wife because he was constantly involved in the markets and had no time for her and so they drifted apart. He then threw himself even deeper into the markets in order to prove to her that it was all worthwhile - that all along he had been trying to make money to provide for them both.

- Are you looking to prove a point to a friend/family member? Perhaps you have failed at things in your life previously and you are trying to prove that you can succeed at something. That you can be successful. And perhaps trading appeals to you because you can make a huge amount of money very quickly and therefore prove that success in an immediately quantifiable way.

- Are you trading to fund a retirement plan?

- Are you trading because you want to earn a consistent income? Take a set wage home each week?

Your objectives will define your style. There is so much on this for free on the web and its worth while searching for and reading. But briefly: if its either of the first two points you may almost certainly be attracted to the lower TFs and start overtrading in order to fulfill your objective of obtaining excitement. If you are looking to prove a point to someone, you may be on any TF but you will no doubt try to take excessive risk in order to get rich quicker. If you are trading to fund a retirement plan you may find yourself on the daily and weekly TFs looking to take conservative risks that offer a good chance of steady growth. If you are trading to earn a consistent income then you may need to go onto the 1hr or lower in order to make money each and every day.

2) What are your targets?

You should have targets and targets must be rewarded. You must have a goal. Too many people think of targets along the lines of: "my target is to earn millions and be the best trader out there". So what happens when you have earnt £5m and you are the best trader out there? Are you going to retire? What are you going to do? Where do you want to be? What do you want to do with your life and how does trading fit into that?

3) How are you going to achieve your targets?

This is your trading plan. You need at the very basic a RISK MANAGEMENT rule that stops you blowing up. You need ENTRY rules and you need EXIT rules.

Write them DOWN and follow them without fail for 1 month regardless of the results. Don't second guess the system because you lose 3 trades in a row. Keep following until you have taken at least 20 trades and then re-evaluate. Where did those trades go after I came out? What do you notice? Does the system work just as well without stochastics? Are your results from inside bars better than pin bars? Do you always seem to get stopped out at the low or the high? Do the trades always continue on in the same way you were positioned after you came out? Maybe your profits are down but your win/loss ratio is high? All of this tells you important things.

If you can't answer these questions, you are NOT READY FOR THIS.

Mate, trading is such hard work.

There is absolutely no such thing as find something simple, follow it and make money.

You always need to work and improve.

This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. I have seen so many people come in to a professional firm, get access to great training (on fundamentals, technicals and reading the market order flow) get the best equipment with the fastest execution and have Q&A sessions, asking whatever they want with proven traders that have made millions upon millions of pounds. And still there are more and more leaving all the time, joining the ranks of those that are unable to make money.
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Last edited by trader_dante; Dec 2, 2008 at 1:55pm.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 1:46pm   #19
 
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Originally Posted by candles View Post
what dante said about the guy 'leaving the office so not to get spooked out' can be contributed to turning my trading around. Look at my journal. Obviously my stakes are TINY but over the last few months ive turned my £400 account to nearly 2k at 5pence per point. Things started going LOTS better when i got a fulltime job and couldn't be at the screen all day!

Dont give up. But keep stakes small so that the worst case scenario wont hurt too much, until you find something that works for YOU.
And in direct contrast to what candles said but backing it up completely: I used to have an almost 90% hit rate and make excellent money consistently when I was working as a journalist and couldn't stare at the screen all day. (see when I first started writing Making Money Trading for my mindset at that time)

Then I became a professional to follow the big bucks and I hit the worst losing streak I have had in two years. I became a victim of the order flow - second guessing myself on every down tick when I was long, exiting too early when I had a good position and should have been running it, entering on the hourly but checking the 5m, panicking every time the Squawk said "10 seconds until X number..." and so on and so forth.

When I joined this firm I honest to God believe I could have given even the big traders in here a run for their money. Right now I can barely give the trainees a run for their money.

Go up a timeframe, take a position with a careful plan and get away from the screen.

You have to trust me.
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Last edited by trader_dante; Dec 2, 2008 at 1:52pm.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 1:46pm   #20
 
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Very good post Tom. (Can't give you any more reps).

(That was for the post 2 above, but the last one is a good 'un as well.)
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 1:48pm   #21
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I can't really add to any of the advice given here but I can say I know exactly how you feel. I am currently in my second break from trading, luckily i've only lost £1300 of my own money (4-5k if you include what i've won then lost) but it can seem as though you're fighting a losing battle.

I don't know you from adam but I am certain your problem is the same as mine: lack of discipline. Even with a solid strategy that I had paper traded successfully for months I still deviated away from it and screwed up.

My only advice is take a good step back from trading, don't even think about it for a couple of weeks then come back refreshed and find a direction you want to go in. Sort out a strategy and paper/demo trade it to ensure it works at least in theory and then get back to trading the smallest stakes you can with a set stoploss % on each trade. I am sure you will come good in the end, just the same as i am sure i will.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 1:52pm   #22
 
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advfntrader started this thread so heres the thing. if its all about following a system 100% why do automated EA's not work ? perhaps some kind of automated system would suit me better
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 2:01pm   #23
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Originally Posted by advfntrader View Post
I have a problem, I LOVE trading and keep doing it even though I have not made 1 SINGLE PENNY from it. I do win some trades but I eventually lose and have to constantly top up my account.

my question is - do I just keep plodding on and hopefully eventually the penny will drop ? or should I just walk away and stop it once and for all ? I'm beginning to feel its like a gambling habit
Hello Advfntrader,
Chin up mate dont give up, I dont know how long you have been trading, but I can certainly relate to your experience up till now.

I am in my 4th year and only now am I showing some consistency, winning more than losing. What you have said above is part of the learning process. Constantly topping up is your subscription to the school of hard knocks. As long as its controlled, not £1000 a week (perish the thought). Min pos size, tightish stops depending on r/r. Stamp this on your forehead.

50p a pt is ideal for now, you need to pull the trigger often, I dont mean overtrade, just when a set up occurs, not being afraid to take the trade, learning to accept losses is part of the process.

You are much better doing this than paying for expensive seminars, actual trading experience is the only way you are going to crack this game.

Think about this, I paid for my daughters tuition fees at university, which today cost £9000 for a 3 yr course. She has been earning about £16000 pa for the last 2 yrs, looking for a better job, not much of a return for a degree at present.

You are paying for learning something here that could hold the keys to the kingdom (cue Kylie - I should be so lucky ).

You have had some good advise on here, especially about forming a business plan, but it took me 2yrs in the ice hole, to even know what I should use to formulate a plan. Its only by trial and error and binning a few sure fire plans, that you have any idea what a good plan is.

And do you know what, those plans become a hell of a lot shorter as you develop.

Hang in there Bro.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 2:49pm   #24
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here are two links which i have found to be useful while working on a plan.

http://www.authorsden.com/SampleWorksPDF/10134.pdf

WD Gann - How to make back losses on a small amount of capital and keep it

not too sure about ganns 28 rules but some of them do sound gd
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 3:05pm   #25
 
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advfntrader: You already have plenty to read here, but here is something on stochastics:

MACD And Stochastic: A Double-Cross Strategy

This isn't exactly what I do, but I am currently using stochastics, MACD, various price-moving averages, and a few other things, not necessarily all at the same time


Good luck.

Regards,
M.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 3:30pm   #26
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advfntrader View Post
I have a problem, I LOVE trading and keep doing it even though I have not made 1 SINGLE PENNY from it. I do win some trades but I eventually lose and have to constantly top up my account.

my question is - do I just keep plodding on and hopefully eventually the penny will drop ? or should I just walk away and stop it once and for all ? I'm beginning to feel its like a gambling habit
Give up or start by getting yourself a proven trading edge that you can employ is the simple answer.

Some good advice already in this thread, but if you are going to carry on...you should as advised in posts above completely re-examine what your goals and objectives are then develop a plan to meet them. The plan has to encompass a proven trading edge and part of your plan should allow time to develop/acquire one.

Currently, judging by your posts re stochastics you don't have one. Acting on o/b or o/s stochs with the trigger of the lower t/f's rolling over at ma's does not constitute a profitable trading edge as you are finding. This is because you are effectively swing trading with no attempt to determine trend or potential supp/res other than ma's (which on their own do not constitute potential supp/res, particularly on the lower 1hr and sub 1hr t/f's.) Also you are using an indicator as an effective trigger, not price action itself.)

Once you have developed/acquired a trading egde, and as further suggested in posts above, trade it with impunity such that:

a. Ensure that you know it's historical strike rate over an extended sample that encompasses all market conditions.
b. If the strike rate fits your tolerances ensure that you calculate your risk such that it does not cause you to suffer a destabilising loss in your account or a destabilising psychological effect if you suffer a consecutive losing run of trades
c. Calculate the optimum risk to reward profile that best fits this trading edge and optimises the gain from it.

Ie Be in a position that your trading edge can pull no surprises, you know what it is capable of and what the likely distribution of winning and losing trades./runs are, so that when it occurs there is no panic.

I think it was Einstein that noted that the definition of insanity was doing the asme thing over and over and expecting a different result...this is effectively what you doing...change the way you work, get a plan that encompasses a proven edge, or save yourself more pain/time and give it up.

G/L.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 3:58pm   #27
 
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I assume you were able to cover your costs, in spite of not being consistent for 7 years ... I gave myslef a 6 month target to get consistent in the Bund. At the moment I am breaking even although am still experiencing off days when I'm better off staying out of the market completely. Hope of success and riches can at times be intoxicating however ... being able just to walk away may be a harder thing to do in practice. Like a recovering alcoholic, I live each day as it comes


Quote:
Originally Posted by trader_dante View Post
An easy way to tell if its a gambling habit is this: Decide to take a two week break from trading to clear your head. When you come back sit down for a few hours and work out what your objectives are, what your targets are and what RULES you are going to use to trade with: in otherwords, make a business plan.

If you find out that:

a) you can't survive two weeks without trading or -
b) you can't be bothered to make a proper business plan

Then you are most likely gambling.

If you are not gambling then the question of how long you should stick at it before you give up is a difficult one to follow. I lived the market literally as an obsession for 7 long years before becoming consistent and still have days (and sometimes weeks) which make you wonder whether you've lost what you had and doubt yourself.

This is why a plan is so vital. You should refer to it every single day you sit infront of that screen.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 4:00pm   #28
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Originally Posted by advfntrader View Post
I have a problem, I LOVE trading and keep doing it even though I have not made 1 SINGLE PENNY from it. I do win some trades but I eventually lose and have to constantly top up my account.

my question is - do I just keep plodding on and hopefully eventually the penny will drop ? or should I just walk away and stop it once and for all ? I'm beginning to feel its like a gambling habit
90% fail. The odds are firmly against any of us succeeding at trading.

Trading is far from simple. Poor implementation of a near perfect trading plan can result in heavy losses.

Many new and old T2W & other trading forum members talk as if they are highly successful high flying traders to whom success came easy.
Sadly, regarding profitability, i think many members are lying, or kidding themselves, or both.

Trading is not simple. It is a mine field.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 4:10pm   #29
 
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Originally Posted by JTrader View Post
90% fail. The odds are firmly against any of us succeeding at trading.

Trading is far from simple. Poor implementation of a near perfect trading plan can result in heavy losses.

Many new and old T2W & other trading forum members talk as if they are highly successful high flying traders to whom success came easy.
Sadly, regarding profitability, i think many members are lying, or kidding themselves, or both.

Trading is not simple. It is a mine field.
This is a very good point. It is easy to believe when reading these and other trading boards that it is just ones-self that is struggling/not profitable and that everyone else is, and the inevitable conclusion seems to be '..it must just be me that is not getting it...what am I missing etc..' This is simply wrong, as JT says many of the posters here will be /have suffered the same trials and errors that you are going thru, you are in good company, lol, and to that extent it is the norm. Success therefore does not come easily and it can take a long while to become consistently profitable.

It is always far easier to impart advice than implement it.
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Old Dec 2, 2008, 4:15pm   #30
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http://www.trade2win.com/boards/567868-post24.html

Quote:
Chartman - I never traded either really.... just dabbled from time to time
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As an example -

Look at how much effort this guy put into trading & t2w ffs.

I am guessing he never actually traded properly as he never actually found a method that worked consistently enough for him that allowed him to prosper.

If this is so, at least he had the balls and good sense to walk away at the right time.

There is a saying - if you find yourself in a hole - stop digging!

Surely this has to serve as a warning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by JTrader; Dec 2, 2008 at 4:24pm.
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