Pin bars...and let this be the last of it.

trader_dante

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Everywhere you turn at the moment there is someone talking about "pin bars": Forex Price Action Strategies - Traders Laboratory

I take this as a disturbing sign for those that trade them.

As Niederhoffer wrote in Education of a Speculator:

The...speculator notices that the trend followers just had a great run. They're all sitting on lots of cash, just waiting for the next trend. But when too much easy money is made, speculators look to make a fast buck by imitating the big boys, and dealers who study the points know that a change of trend will occur if certain key points are triggered. They start moving prices up to these points in anticipation. The probability of a successful trend-following trade is reduced.

The public can never catch up to the changes in cycles. Just when they're ready to follow a system, it's the wrong time.


If a strong hand realises that the break of a pin will enter enough amateurs into the market then breaking the pin becomes a quick play. And in these times, when liquidity is low across the board, it becomes even easier. A lot of players are hitting market at the moment rather than sitting on bids and offers and many of the computers have been turned off. I'm not sure if anyone has been watching the Cable Futures but liquidity is dropping off fast - if price got within 10-20 pips of breaking a pin I could probably push it through with a 1 lot (£3 a tick) just by hitting an offer when the spread widens which I have seen it do by as much as 15 pips when the computers are off.

A good trader must stay ahead of the game and not rely heavily on one thing.

You have to be wiser than simply looking for pin bars or you will always be behind the game.

This is why I have felt (and still feel) dismayed when I get people spouting out about 15m pins here, 5m pins there. It's not about the pin. The pin is about as important as having a pen is to play the lottery. If you want to win the lottery the only thing that will do it for you is PICKING THE RIGHT NUMBERS.

I hoped that eventually some of the people that read my posts would read between the lines and realise that if the price is the key to the strategy then one can trade where they would want a pin bar to form, to both reduce risk and increase reward.

Of course, a new problem would then present itself: will the market continue or reverse? Is there a squeeze taking place? And these two problems would concentrate a traders focus in a new direction: perhaps levels would then be watched with regard to volume and order flow (the size and speed of transactions) in order to keep abreast of the weak hands. Or perhaps they would look at other patterns - patterns that repeat themselves at all times because the locals are humans and human behaviour can be read.

The introduction I gave in my original thread will, I hope, teach new traders several key things among others:

1) Basic technical analysis can be profitable

2) Price discovery is always taking place but by defining the high probability reversal or continuation pivots, the trader can understand the concept of defining an optimum entry into a swing

3) One can read the price action to make profitable trades. The simple setups illustrate the markets movements - pin bars show temporary price rejection. Inside bars show temporary price consolidation.

4) Patience is key. The patience to wait for setups and the patience to stay with winning positions.

But you must always stay ahead of the game.

Sooner or later I may another thread teaching what I have learnt but this time I will probably make it a private forum for followers of my original that want to trade with tighter stops and want to learn how to read the tape (the order flow) to refine their entries. That way it keeps out those that read but never post and those that take but never give.

But in the meantime, study the market. Keep it simple but know the limitations of any strategy you trade and always work to improve yourself.
 
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one good post deserves another

Everywhere you turn at the moment there is someone talking about "pin bars": Forex Price Action Strategies - Traders Laboratory

I take this as a disturbing sign for those that trade them.

As Niederhoffer wrote in Education of a Speculator:

The...speculator notices that the trend followers just had a great run. They're all sitting on lots of cash, just waiting for the next trend. But when too much easy money is made, speculators look to make a fast buck by imitating the big boys, and dealers who study the points know that a change of trend will occur if certain key points are triggered. They start moving prices up to these points in anticipation. The probability of a successful trend-following trade is reduced.

The public can never catch up to the changes in cycles. Just when they're ready to follow a system, it's the wrong time.


If a strong hand realises that the break of a pin will enter enough amateurs into the market then breaking the pin becomes a quick play. And in these times, when liquidity is low across the board, it becomes even easier. A lot of players are hitting market at the moment rather than sitting on bids and offers and many of the computers have been turned off. I'm not sure if anyone has been watching the Cable Futures but liquidity is dropping off fast - if price got within 10-20 pips of breaking a pin I could probably push it through with a 1 lot (£3 a tick) just by hitting an offer when the spread widens which I have seen it do by as much as 15 pips when the computers are off.

A good trader must stay ahead of the game and not rely heavily on one thing.

You have to be wiser than simply looking for pin bars or you will always be behind the game.

This is why I have felt (and still feel) dismayed when I get people spouting out about 15m pins here, 5m pins there. It's not about the pin. The pin is about as important as having a pen is to play the lottery. If you want to win the lottery the only thing that will do it for you is PICKING THE RIGHT NUMBERS.

I hoped that eventually some of the people that read my posts would read between the lines and realise that if the price is the key to the strategy then one can trade where they would want a pin bar to form, to both reduce risk and increase reward.

Of course, a new problem would then present itself: will the market continue or reverse? Is there a squeeze taking place? And these two problems would concentrate a traders focus in a new direction: perhaps levels would then be watched with regard to volume and order flow (the size and speed of transactions) in order to keep abreast of the weak hands. Or perhaps they would look at other patterns - patterns that repeat themselves at all times because the locals are humans and human behaviour can be read.

The introduction I gave in my original thread will, I hope, teach new traders several key things among others:

1) Basic technical analysis can be profitable

2) Price discovery is always taking place but by defining the high probability reversal or continuation pivots, the trader can understand the concept of defining an optimum entry into a swing

3) One can read the price action to make profitable trades. The simple setups illustrate the markets movements - pin bars show temporary price rejection. Inside bars show temporary price consolidation.

4) Patience is key. The patience to wait for setups and the patience to stay with winning positions.

But you must always stay ahead of the game.

Sooner or later I may another thread teaching what I have learnt but this time I will probably make it a private forum for followers of my original that want to trade with tighter stops and want to learn how to read the tape (the order flow) to refine their entries. That way it keeps out those that read but never post and those that take but never give.

But in the meantime, study the market. Keep it simple but know the limitations of any strategy you trade and always work to improve yourself.


Good post Tom




A simple experiment might help me make my point. Next time anyone gets the ‘urge’ to take a position in the market just stop for a moment. Bring up a chart or two of the relevant instrument. Now place yourself in two scenarios and answer the following two questions;
1 ) Imagine that you have recently gone long in this instrument – where would you place your stop?

2 ) Imagine that you have recently gone short in this instrument – where would you place your stop?
Once you have identified the two stop areas you have identified an area where taking a trade is of much lower risk. It is of lower risk because you have found an area where temporary price deflection is likely to occur. In those areas the 95% are flushed out of their positions purely due to price – this is where you can step in. Obviously, if you have supporting volume as well then you are more than likely onto a good thing.

By Steve




Andy
 
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Lol ..... is time money td or is it just TIME ?

Time and Money


Imagine there is a bank account that credits your account each morning with $86,400. It carries over no balance from day to day. Every evening the bank deletes whatever part of the balance you failed to use during the day. What would you do? Draw out every cent, of course. Each of us has such a bank. It’s name is TIME. Every morning, it credits you with 86,400 seconds. Every night it writes off as lost, whatever of this you have failed to invest to a good purpose. It carries over no balance. It allows no over draft. Each day it opens a new account for you. Each night it burns the remains of the day. If you fail to use the day’s deposits, the loss is yours. There is no drawing against “tomorrow.”

time_money.jpg


Andy
 
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t_d,

there will always be different levels of traders. there will always be those that trade every signal, because that ultimately reflects lack of understanding of what they trade. (stop on red, ready on amber, go on green)
there will always be those that realise that a signal is an opportunity to trade once you have surveyed the market condition (go on green IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO)
you cant teach anyone that. its a self-realisation, such as knowing when to use indicators (whether they are PA-based or indicator-based) and when to pass.
no signals are perfect, and traders also need to learn to adapt. very difficult to do as well.

all you can do is hope that they get it before they bleed their accounts.
dont be too disheartened. your work will stand the test of time, and will be referenced by serious players.
dont worry (too much) about those that dont get it.
 
'pinbars' have been around for a long time and are just a representation of buyers and sellers reacting at any given point. Alone they mean only so much, same as any other japanese candlestick pattern.

What newbies and wannabees fail to realise is the years of hard work you have put into studying markets and you know there is more to it to make it work. Much more.

No one thing alone will make somebody money but whilst their is greed and desire, people will latch onto anything whilst its in the limelight and thus provide the cannon fodder we all need and require.
 
forget about it mate. Follow the footprints of the big fish, don't let the minnows get on your tits (or just go fishing yourself).

EDIT: Having read the post you linked to, seems that most of the people trading PBs are following them blindly, without "surveying the field". Let them learn for themselves - the hard way: you have outlined an excellent foundation for personal study on multiple threads here, let those that only work for half the course fail the exam.
 
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forget about it mate. Follow the footprints of the big fish, don't let the minnows get on your tits (or just go fishing yourself).

EDIT: Having read the post you linked to, seems that most of the people trading PBs are following them blindly, without "surveying the field". Let them learn for themselves - the hard way: you have outlined an excellent foundation for personal study on multiple threads here, let those that only work for half the course fail the exam.


It's amazing how many posts have, "looks like a pinbar forming", "is this another pinbar on xyz", "hey guys just spotted a pinbar on....", "my grandmother is turning into a pinbar, shall i trade her..", types of comment. I blame TraderDante:).
 
Hey guys it's a fashion, pinbars are the new pinstripes, i've just bought a lovely pinbar suit.
 
Agreed - a single bar is just a visual representation of price action over a fixed interval - be it a fixed period of time, or a fixed number of ticks.
Maybe if ALL TRADERS used the exact same timeframe, you could place importance on a single pinbar. However, they do not, and so for me also, the pinbar alone, is of limited or no use in my analysis & decision making. In fact, i will sometimes looks for setups in the opposite direction of hoiw in theory a pinbar should be traded, when i have what is essentially a pinbar on my chart, and once other criteria are met, by entering on a lower timeframe.

Sometimes they work, other times they do not work. Overall they seem to provide limited, or no - edge IMO.
To be a successful trader needs more than just pinbars.
 
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It's amazing how many posts have, "looks like a pinbar forming", "is this another pinbar on xyz", "hey guys just spotted a pinbar on....", "my grandmother is turning into a pinbar, shall i trade her..", types of comment. I blame TraderDante:).

Agreed, it's never, "this is approaching a good area, let's watch." It's about the big picture, the market will always go where it wants to go, stop being so obsessed about every little pinbar that appears.
 
It's amazing how many posts have, "looks like a pinbar forming", "is this another pinbar on xyz", "hey guys just spotted a pinbar on....", "my grandmother is turning into a pinbar, shall i trade her..", types of comment. I blame TraderDante:).

Where is that serial ligger, lurker when you need 'im.:)
 
It's amazing how many posts have, "looks like a pinbar forming", "is this another pinbar on xyz", "hey guys just spotted a pinbar on....", "my grandmother is turning into a pinbar, shall i trade her..", types of comment. I blame TraderDante:).

Do you think that there is some connection between TD, pinbars and queues around the block leading to the banks?

It's amazing what a pin can do! :)

Split
 
He started it Guv..

Do you think that there is some connection between TD, pinbars and queues around the block leading to the banks?

It's amazing what a pin can do! :)

Split


Yeah - I agree - blame TD for talking about Pin Bars:cheesy:
 
I am a newbie and was fortunate to read TD'd making money thread. Initialy I thought pinbars were a sort of holy grail high probability trade - however what was much more important to me was;

a. It opened my eyes to price action - this is something I study now, pinbars are a small part of that.
b. It showed me the relationship of risk and reward and money management.
c. It had "quality" input from others in the tread - I know follow posts by these others as well to improve my knowledge.

Blame TD for pinbars!!- I agree....but it was the start of the road for me (thanks TD).

This is what makes T2W a quality site - the ability of others to share and help, long may it continue.

Pinbar imitators and charlatans exploiting others are all found out fairly quickly - keep up the quality posts.

Swiss
 
Yers pinbar are prett much a random phenomenon IMO. Telling you only what has happened within that fixed interval of time/ticks - they are an illusion.

Mainly, what really matters is supply and demand, resistance and support. Because these are price specific phenomenon. A certain price/price area that has caused a reversal before, will cause further S/R, pauses, quick breakout continuations, and possible reversals.
 
Forgive my ignorance and laziness, but what is a pin bar anyway?

I've heard of hammers, dojis etc but pin bars seem to be a formation known only to users of this site?
 
A pin bar is a candle that has both its open and close within the top or lower third of the range, so it takes on the appearance of a 'pin' with a long shadow, and this spike is pointing in the direction of the current trend. Another way of looking at it is a hammer with the handle on the outside so price is making a nice impulsive move and then within the time period of the bar, price pulls back to it's open. Some traders consider this to be a valid reversal signal, although I am yet to see any statistical evidence (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). Price pulls back in trends, this is all a pin bar shows, especially on lower time frames. A pin on a 4H or daily is arguably a better gauge of a shift in market sentiment. I have heard people call it a pin bar after Pinocchio, as it 'lies' about the direction of the market.

Like any price action entry techniques, trading with out some sort of support or resistance context is unlikely to bring anything much better than break even in my opinion. Factor in some higher probability support and resistance, then when you see pin bars, doji's, abandoned babies etc in the vicinity you can take a bit more notice.
 

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Don"t forget wot options said on the other thread J

Yers pinbar are prett much a random phenomenon IMO. Telling you only what has happened within that fixed interval of time/ticks - they are an illusion.

Mainly, what really matters is supply and demand, resistance and support. Because these are price specific phenomenon. A certain price/price area that has caused a reversal before, will cause further S/R, pauses, quick breakout continuations, and possible reversals.



J

Have to disagree here

If pinbar forms in the day tf below what could be judged a fair value zone in the next tf up (month/weeks)

all other factors considered as per Toms thread ~

I for one think you have a good trade opportunity in front of you and even if you do not trade the absolute method as per ORIGINAL instructions ~

Value is all +++++++ from what I have observed in the last year

Following a pin forming you have potential strength / weakness in the background and can adjust your future trades accordingly

How good you are at reading price action does determine its value in the end, much the same as anything ~inside bar in the hour tf for example.

Original thread = Do not think Tom ever pointed out, at least I don"t remember seeing it

A Day Pinbar very often = 1 hour tf head and shoulders pattern and ...well do your own reading up and make your own mind up to its value

You have ~

Tom its your method ~ you tell em what they have ................. again & again over and over :) good warning post by the way (y)

you got plenty if you use your eyes, and do some more reading up !


don"t even think about it J, you have your signals to be looking out for and are far to buZZZ"y to post back :), good luck with it :clover:



Andy
 
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:|
I am a newbie and was fortunate to read TD'd making money thread. Initialy I thought pinbars were a sort of holy grail high probability trade - however what was much more important to me was;

a. It opened my eyes to price action - this is something I study now, pinbars are a small part of that.
b. It showed me the relationship of risk and reward and money management.
c. It had "quality" input from others in the tread - I know follow posts by these others as well to improve my knowledge.

Blame TD for pinbars!!- I agree....but it was the start of the road for me (thanks TD).

This is what makes T2W a quality site - the ability of others to share and help, long may it continue.

Pinbar imitators and charlatans exploiting others are all found out fairly quickly - keep up the quality posts.

Swiss

I know this is an old thread now, but I could not agree more with Swissy. Your original thread, was so much more than just about pin bars, for me. It was about opening up a whole new approach to thinking about trading, much more,than I could go into here so if you see this, then thanks traderdante, and don’t feel disheartened. (oh, and I imagine, this post, is true for many, many newbies, now and for years to come.)
Thanks Jason

OH, while I am here can anyone recommend any books on trading pure price, with little or no indicators?
 
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