Help with psychology....

Hello all,

I have a trading plan and system that does work i.e gets me a good entry, its nothing special, its baced on MA's but it does work. I have good MM and risk control.

However the most important thing for a trader is psychologoly, and I dont have the right kind! Even though the system is constantly profitable I seem to bounce around breakeven/small loss.

My question to you is, did you have this problem? And if so how did you solve it?

Many thanks

Rossini said:

Even though the system is constantly profitable I seem to bounce around breakeven/small loss.

Click to expand...

If the System is constantly profitable, are you implying that you are over-riding the system and hence the actual results which you are achieving?

If so, can the system be coded and mechanically traded?

Chorlton

No not really, what I mean by constantly profitable is it gets me into enough profitable posisions to pay for the losses (which are a set amount) and then some. Because it is not totaly mechanical there is room for me to mess things up. For example, last week it indicated that I sould short the GBP/JPY (as im sure lots of trend following systems indicated)

I did short it and was 20 pips in profit, at this time I was saying to myself there is no reason to get out and the system was conferming this. However I was trigger happy as usual and took 20 pips when I could have had 100+ (which was the target anyway). There is a conflict between what I think/system it telling me and what I do. I need some way to get around this problem. As I type I have just taken a 12 pt loss as I started to doubt myself but now I would be in profet with what looks to be a very strong posision and good chart pattern.

Rossini said:

No not really, what I mean by constantly profitable is it gets me into enough profitable posisions to pay for the losses (which are a set amount) and then some. Because it is not totaly mechanical there is room for me to mess things up. For example, last week it indicated that I sould short the GBP/JPY (as im sure lots of trend following systems indicated)

I did short it and was 20 pips in profit, at this time I was saying to myself there is no reason to get out and the system was conferming this. However I was trigger happy as usual and took 20 pips when I could have had 100+ (which was the target anyway). There is a conflict between what I think/system it telling me and what I do. I need some way to get around this problem. As I type I have just taken a 12 pt loss as I started to doubt myself but now I would be in profet with what looks to be a very strong posision and good chart pattern.

Click to expand...

To be honest, I have gone through a similar experience to yourself a few years ago. I used to override my discretionary system on specific occasions.
One of these was when I was in profit (after immediately suffering a loss) and deciding to end the trade early so as to lock in some profit. Afterall, you can't go broke taking a profit can you? Err..... well actually one can !!!
Another occasion was when I was in profit and although I felt that the chart was indicating a change in Mrkt Sentiment I would hold on "for a bit longer" due to greed. I won't bore you with how this worked out for me!!!

Anyway, the only way I personally found to deal with this was to rely 100% on my strategy. However, as it was discretionary this was extremly difficult to achieve. Consequently, I decided to go down the route of mechanical trading.

Although, emotion will always be a part of trading, I feel this is now greatly reduced...

Chorlton said:

However, as it was discretionary this was extremly difficult to achieve. Consequently, I decided to go down the route of mechanical trading.

Click to expand...

As do many...take the easy route because the other route is "too hard". If only you persisted....

3 Little Words

Rossini said:

its nothing special

Click to expand...

The last post I thought "3 little words" the person had used "I have Only" I did highlight and comment "what does this say?" Apart from smart ass answer like "4 little words" & it says "what does this say" (well ,I have always been that way myself,see)

Leaving comedy aside and trying to be serious (or stop goofing ) for a moment. Perhaps because if what you may truly know ie "its nothing special" then you are naturally, quite rightly niggling yourself in your physical/mental actions ,being hesitant , questioning & behaving in your execution in a sporadic & subjective dance.

In short, "you" "know" that "its nothing special" ?

I do feel, think, know? that its no wonder traders will behave like this as really they know the system/method is not suitable at that stage. So they may trial and error with it on the hoof working towards improving it using their best ability.

Normal process I feel, but this can leave open the door to allow normal emotional charge to experience(especially if the trader does this in a live environment) , which i see as a natural reaction in a kind of fight or flight way when we operate without knowing or having limited knowledge on the markets,environment & behaviour & our own behaviour trying to function in that environment. Thats normal human reaction?

At this point a trader may ,hmmm, the trader will likely not be aware of it, but i can see the trader is at a fork in the junction that he cant see yet. LOL. How long for the fog to clear.....? who knows... anyway..

Fork Left, I choose to use a method "thats nothing special" (trading methods,loadsetc) BUT I will need to train /discipline myslef to operate execute under these conditions.

Fork Right, I will continue to observe the market behaviour and develop a method which "is something special" (its based on the fluidity of behaviour etc) . You will still need to train and discipline,but i see it as more of putting the trader, or he or she finding the right path/ fork in the road to take FOR THEM.

I also beleive that this why many mehtods sold or GIVEN AWAY, etc are ,even though potentially workable/profitable are not always in the best long term interests of the trader using them. You could call it and I will A Mismatching Concept. Which although the person giving away techniques might be wanting to be helpful, doing this en masse with no "Matching Concept" policy in action ,could lead to more delays to the user. Maybe I just a fussy bugger, but hopefully or not ,thats my own view of it anyway. Thats definately the fence I happily sit on at this stage.

Just some ideas mate that spring to my mind on these matters .

3 little words are important as they are the cause for me using a few hundred in this post it seems.. So Thank you.

new_trader said:

As do many...take the easy route because the other route is "too hard". If only you persisted....

Click to expand...

Thats a bold claim !!!!

I was under the impression that trading was a personal thing and that there were many ways to make a profit. The key was to find something that suited ones own personality and character.

In my case mechanical trading was a better "fit" with the type of person I am. It had nothing to do with something being "easier" as you claim.....

Chorlton said:

Thats a bold claim !!!!

I was under the impression that trading was a personal thing and that there were many ways to make a profit. The key was to find something that suited ones own personality and character.

Click to expand...

Newtrader has never been known for his personal insight ... either into himself or others. One can only hope for his financial survival that his grip on the market is better.

Matching of Trading Principals

As do many...take the easy route because the other route is "too hard". If only you persisted....

Click to expand...

Thats a bold claim !!!!

I was under the impression that trading was a personal thing and that there were many ways to make a profit. The key was to find something that suited ones own personality and character.

In my case mechanical trading was a better "fit" with the type of person I am. It had nothing to do with something being "easier" as you claim.....

Click to expand...

Statistical strats have been proven to yield consistent profits for the user? So this is an example of the "Matching Concept" perhaps being required as soon as possible. Its normal I guess that we each have to match or decide which Trading Principle is right for us ?

Thing is who takes the time and operating with a duty of care, ensuring we take not so much the path least travelled but, the one which means "I'll be trading2win to the very best of my ability" ? Typically that means again we have to put oursleves through the selection process in this area too ?

As far as I am aware there is not much out there that looks at the individual beforehand, in any great detail. But trading is competitive, so understand this.

Good post and observation

Crap Buddist said:

The last post I thought "3 little words" the person had used "I have Only" I did highlight and comment "what does this say?" Apart from smart ass answer like "4 little words" & it says "what does this say" (well ,I have always been that way myself,see)

Leaving comedy aside and trying to be serious (or stop goofing ) for a moment. Perhaps because if what you may truly know ie "its nothing special" then you are naturally, quite rightly niggling yourself in your physical/mental actions ,being hesitant , questioning & behaving in your execution in a sporadic & subjective dance.

In short, "you" "know" that "its nothing special" ?

I do feel, think, know? that its no wonder traders will behave like this as really they know the system/method is not suitable at that stage. So they may trial and error with it on the hoof working towards improving it using their best ability.

Normal process I feel, but this can leave open the door to allow normal emotional charge to experience(especially if the trader does this in a live environment) , which i see as a natural reaction in a kind of fight or flight way when we operate without knowing or having limited knowledge on the markets,environment & behaviour & our own behaviour trying to function in that environment. Thats normal human reaction?

At this point a trader may ,hmmm, the trader will likely not be aware of it, but i can see the trader is at a fork in the junction that he cant see yet. LOL. How long for the fog to clear.....? who knows... anyway..

Fork Left, I choose to use a method "thats nothing special" (trading methods,loadsetc) BUT I will need to train /discipline myslef to operate execute under these conditions.

Fork Right, I will continue to observe the market behaviour and develop a method which "is something special" (its based on the fluidity of behaviour etc) . You will still need to train and discipline,but i see it as more of putting the trader, or he or she finding the right path/ fork in the road to take FOR THEM.

I also beleive that this why many mehtods sold or GIVEN AWAY, etc are ,even though potentially workable/profitable are not always in the best long term interests of the trader using them. You could call it and I will A Mismatching Concept. Which although the person giving away techniques might be wanting to be helpful, doing this en masse with no "Matching Concept" policy in action ,could lead to more delays to the user. Maybe I just a fussy bugger, but hopefully or not ,thats my own view of it anyway. Thats definately the fence I happily sit on at this stage.

Just some ideas mate that spring to my mind on these matters .

3 little words are important as they are the cause for me using a few hundred in this post it seems.. So Thank you.

Click to expand...

Hi

Good post

a do over template, new choice ?

A trader wants to unlearn or at least move forward and take the path to the right.

You can never go back, how do you look at the market with un-stained eyes from past experience.

How did you achieve it, assuming you did ? did you wash the slate clean and start again ?

Did you leave all your old beliefs behind ?

A starting point past just a realization it may be required to move forward might be helpful, well it would be for me anyway

What do you hold on to what do you leave behind ? its a bit like going on Holiday and you find your bags overloaded at the airport.

Everything inside looks pretty important and required



Andy

If you make a small loss because you have only had a small gain, I can understand that. If I only have a small gain I, certainly don't want it to turn into a large loss.

It's when you have seen a large profit on the trade and you watch it fade away to a loss is where you need to get a grip phsycologically. If you are looking at a 20 points profit and you cannot see that it has reversed, I believe that you should have a limit of 50 % reversal, maximum from top to bottom, drawn as you would a fib line.

Put a stop there and get out by that time.

Stops take care of that part of psychology.

You can't be moving them up enough.

Split

The ancient scrolls of Pure Light

Yeah but CB if you know The Pure Light Prince of Price rules over the Marauder of Dark Shadow Method ,how can you see any choice ,other than everyone should study be schooled on the Principles of the The Pure Light Prince of Price? I mean why even suggest students could or should follow the filth of the schooling and teachings from the Marauder of Dark Shadow Method?

Because the effect/by product of the Pure Light Prince of Price means that profitunity is also at times possible for the Marauder of Dark Shadow Method. Sure his suit maybe of differing cut to The Pure Light Prince of Price, but a suited and dressed man he still doth be!


Text taken from the Ancient Scrolls. Sometime pre 1987 Modern Big Bang.
Doth it was seen that as The Pure Light Prince cut the flesh from his prey on which to feed and as this flesh fell towards store Canneth the Marauder of Dark Shadow method be found feeding on offcuts journey.


So even way back in ancient times it can be seen this co existance was in place between the Pure Light Prince of Price & the Marauder of Dark Shadow Method. I'm sure they had their own run ins at times but they existed in the same environoment, each having different perspectives of it


er.. think I need a T break or somethin.. :cheesy:

Crap Buddist said:

Yeah but CB if you know The Pure Light Prince of Price rules over the Marauder of Dark Shadow Method ,how can you see any choice ,other than everyone should study be schooled on the Principals of the The Pure Light Prince of Price? I mean why even suggest students could or should follow the filth of the schooling and teachings from the Marauder of Dark Shadow Method?

Because the effect/by product of the Pure Light Price of Price means that profitunity is also at times possible for the Marauder of Dark Shadow Method. Sure his suit maybe of differing cut to The Pure Light Prince of Price, but a suited and dressed man he still doth be!


Text taken from the Ancient Scrolls. Sometime pre 1987 Modern Big Bang.
Doth it was seen that as The Pure Light Prince cut the flesh from his prey on which to feed and as this flesh fell towards store Canneth the Marauder of Dark Shadow method be found feeding on offcuts journey.


So even way back in ancient times it can be seen this co existance was in place between the Pure Light Price of Price & the Marauder of Dark Shadow Method. I'm sure they had their own run ins at times but they existed in the same envirnoment.


er.. think I need a T break or somethin.. :cheesy:

Click to expand...

Yes, I think you do.

Bladerunner said:

Hi

Good post

a do over template, new choice ?

A trader wants to unlearn or at least move forward and take the path to the right.

You can never go back, how do you look at the market with un-stained eyes from past experience.

How did you achieve it, assuming you did ? did you wash the slate clean and start again ?

Did you leave all your old beliefs behind ?

A starting point past just a realization it may be required to move forward might be helpful, well it would be for me anyway

What do you hold on to what do you leave behind ? its a bit like going on Holiday and you find your bags overloaded at the airport.

Everything inside looks pretty important and required

Andy

Click to expand...

Hello Andy mate... For me right at the start it was always a feeling inside of , "with this amount of money and this type of business, I don't think "they" Big entities? well they wouldnt get involved unless there was some structure in the apparent chaos"

In short always known that MARKETS ARE NOT RANDOM.

So what does that mean ? it means that we cant see it. hence confusion, chaos disorder is seen.. But thats just my own personal surfacing of thought right of the bat, so thats been my motivator. In a way i was amazed at the cleverness of decption LOL.

What a challenge! Sure also what a hard personal thing for me to learn and do , and no doubt 99.8% of other outsiders trying to "make sense" without any guidance accept your own ,own??? ability and functioning guiding you.

I dont know but I am assuming everyone can answer this question or get to a point at some point of knowing it as a question to be answered..

Do i go the price route or systematic statistical method route or a combo even..

I see it like the martial arts what form or discipline does the practioner decide to take up ? What seems a normal reasoning to me in answering it was the bit about corporates running the show ? and also a general auction market price theory.. or cycles of demand and supply if you like... plus retailing the product, advertising, markups discounts etc to encourage trade like any other business.

So thats shaped my approach to looking or knowing which route to work towards, oh plus on top of that the speculation side or exploitation of the unknowing person ,stiffing them in the markets. Plus I dare say today theres a weight of money element. Which may result in the thieves sticking their hands in the honey pot ans taking everything becuase they can facilitate that.

Dont ask in which order all this stuff starts flying in or about... Still open to learning myself mate. The key thing is I do enjoy it, I'm still working away.But people ,individuals are all important and valuable so as far as stain removal goes, well there is no shame in feeling your experience. With no one to guide us accept ourselves usually then we are bound to perhaps stumble about whilst "self learning" So I dont beat myself up on **** ups or whatever, yeah i might swear at myself but not for long...

To me, trading is a process based on events happening both in the market and the individual & knowing this.

Splitlink said:

Yes, I think you do.

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lol yeah agree but I could blag it as creative writing Split. Perhaps something you could story tell some of that to your grandkids at bedtime about the prince n such and great battles!

Cheers.

Crap Buddist said:

lol yeah agree but I could blag it as creative writing Split. Perhaps something you could story tell some of that to your grandkids at bedtime about the prince n such and great battles!

Cheers.

Click to expand...

They tell ME those!

I put them to sleep with great trades that I have made. Never fails!

nine said:

Newtrader has never been known for his personal insight ... either into himself or others. One can only hope for his financial survival that his grip on the market is better.

Click to expand...

new_trader doesn't care much for your opinion either.

Chorlton said:

Thats a bold claim !!!!

I was under the impression that trading was a personal thing and that there were many ways to make a profit. The key was to find something that suited ones own personality and character.

In my case mechanical trading was a better "fit" with the type of person I am. It had nothing to do with something being "easier" as you claim.....

Click to expand...

Just trying to help....oh well...