Overdoing it

wasp · Apr 5, 2008

When I read some of the threads on here I find myself going back to Arb's pit stories thead for a dose of realism... http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-arcades/16898-arcade-traders-pit-stories-thread.html

Whether those mentioned in those stories were profitable or not thats who moved the markets. They are also no different to those trading and moving the markets these days I imagine.

I really cannot fathom any of those guys sitting at home at night reading books on NLP, or worrying about pyschology 24/7 nor thinking about where the moon is!

Is it because the internet gives us time and an escape to waffle about bizarre theories and things that don't matter filling our heads with un-needed crap?!

Trader_Dante made a great post the other day about what all the guys at his office do to make large amounts of money... study price and buyers and sellers and market participants.

So why is there so much discussion about something that is essentially so simple. Buyers vs Sellers, bugger all else to it!

IMO, next time you think of elobarate and time wasting theories, take a read of that thread and see who you are competing against!

Keep it simple and trade the participants....

0007 · Apr 5, 2008

wasp said:
When I read some of the threads on here I find myself going back to Arb's pit stories thead for a dose of realism... http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-arcades/16898-arcade-traders-pit-stories-thread.html

Whether those mentioned in those stories were profitable or not thats who moved the markets. They are also no different to those trading and moving the markets these days I imagine.

I really cannot fathom any of those guys sitting at home at night reading books on NLP, or worrying about pyschology 24/7 nor thinking about where the moon is!

Is it because the internet gives us time and an escape to waffle about bizarre theories and things that don't matter filling our heads with un-needed crap?!

Trader_Dante made a great post the other day about what all the guys at his office do to make large amounts of money... study price and buyers and sellers and market participants.

So why is there so much discussion about something that is essentially so simple. Buyers vs Sellers, bugger all else to it!

IMO, next time you think of elobarate and time wasting theories, take a read of that thread and see who you are competing against!

Keep it simple and trade the participants....

Can't really argue with that. But human nature being what it is ........................ take football: quite simple actually - get the ball in the net = score a goal. All you need is more times than the other side. So why do we have hours and hours of discussion on TV / radio / workplace?

It's got to be something to do with entertainment value and the quest for the holy grail. We all know in trading that if you can find the end of the rainbow and dig up the pot of gold, then you're home & dry. Simple.

Those who can, do............most of the time !

Paul71 · Apr 6, 2008

wasp said:
... study price and buyers and sellers and market participants...

...And at what price they want to do business...

Sorry, forgot to mention, the participants do like to play games at times, be careful.

Crap Buddist · Apr 6, 2008

No dont say anything, time is the most precious thing one can manage...

wasp said:
When I read some of the threads on here I find myself going back to Arb's pit stories thead for a dose of realism... http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-arcades/16898-arcade-traders-pit-stories-thread.html

Whether those mentioned in those stories were profitable or not thats who moved the markets. They are also no different to those trading and moving the markets these days I imagine.

I really cannot fathom any of those guys sitting at home at night reading books on NLP, or worrying about pyschology 24/7 nor thinking about where the moon is!

Is it because the internet gives us time and an escape to waffle about bizarre theories and things that don't matter filling our heads with un-needed crap?!

Trader_Dante made a great post the other day about what all the guys at his office do to make large amounts of money... study price and buyers and sellers and market participants.

So why is there so much discussion about something that is essentially so simple. Buyers vs Sellers, bugger all else to it!

IMO, next time you think of elobarate and time wasting theories, take a read of that thread and see who you are competing against!

Keep it simple and trade the participants....

The pursuit of knowledge wasp I think is what drives people to question the essence/nature of what it is they are observing .

Speculate from the latin speculari meaning to observe.

If one can or manage time to position oneself to engage in speculation (observation) then one can learn about his opponent, competitor, enemy, the market money pushers.

Dont know if you have read The art of war, or whether you would rank it as time wasting theory, but worth a read if one wants to study and plan for the War of profits.I dont think human nature has change since Sun Tzu's time.. The 6 th Century B.C.

Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all ranks.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
Victory lies in the knowledge of those five points. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
~Sun Tzu

This is me on the way to the office ready for a spot of GBPJPY trading whilst whistling Ryuichi Sakamoto's, Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence.

Paul71 · Apr 6, 2008

Crap Buddist said:
The pursuit of knowledge wasp I think is what drives people to question the essence/nature of what it is they are observing .

Speculate from the latin speculari meaning to observe.

If one can or manage time to position oneself to engage in speculation (observation) then one can learn about his opponent, competitor, enemy, the market money pushers.

Dont know if you have read The art of war, or whether you would rank it as time wasting theory, but worth a read if one wants to study and plan for the War of profits.I dont think human nature has change since Sun Tzu's time.. The 6 th Century B.C.

Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:

He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all ranks.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
Victory lies in the knowledge of those five points. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
~Sun Tzu

This is me on the way to the office ready for a spot of GBPJPY trading whilst whistling Ryuichi Sakamoto's, Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence.

I didn't know you were an imperial stormtrooper?

wasp · Apr 6, 2008

0007 said:
Can't really argue with that. But human nature being what it is ........................ take football: quite simple actually - get the ball in the net = score a goal. All you need is more times than the other side. So why do we have hours and hours of discussion on TV / radio / workplace?

Exactly, and when was the last time we won a world cup?! For all our talking and analysis, we actually get worse!

Paul71 · Apr 6, 2008

wasp said:
Exactly, and when was the last time we won a world cup?! For all our talking and analysis, we actually get worse!

Excellent!

Crap Buddist · Apr 6, 2008

wasp said:
Exactly, and when was the last time we won a world cup?! For all our talking and analysis, we actually get worse!

Maybe our competitors got better.
Maybe the the game of football is won or lost in the head, before the ball is icked.
Maybe the competition went from kicking the ball to being the ball.

wasp · Apr 6, 2008

Crap Buddist said:
Maybe our competitors got better.
Maybe the the game of football is won or lost in the head, before the ball is icked.
Maybe the competition went from kicking the ball to being the ball.

:clap:

chump · Apr 7, 2008

wasp said:
:clap:

I'm pretty sure you're right that everyday traders don't spend too much time considering personal psychology etc, they shouldn't do if they are any good, BUT if the implication is that personal psychology is not important I'd say you are so far off base that the base is not even in sight and that is because of your viewpoint.
I might be wrong about that and if so I'd apologise ,but at this point I don't think I am.

Clocking in and out of a place of work everyday where you are shuffling relatively small amounts of personal capital ,or indeed trading large amounts of other people's capital is absolutely nothing like trying to consistently manage your entire personal net worth and of course as you get older what that means to you also changes. When you're younger, taking chances to me anyway, was a completely different fish from what it is now.

When I say personal psychology is important it doesn't mean you spend your life navel gazing . It does mean that you never lose sight or awareness of what you are doing and why you are doing it. If I had a pound for every guy I have met who didn't do that and lived to rue it I'd be even more comfortable than I am....don't think the point is valid ? please email Victor Niederhoffer or get a medium to have a chat with Livermore...they're just two extreme examples of the many less exagerated cases that are there to be found everyday of the year. Let's not even talk about them as individuals ,let's call then Hedgies with very 'smart' people at the helm...well if they are that smart why are so many so flucked ?

...if putting on weight is just the small indisciplines that people take everyday then losing your shirt pushing that bit too hard is no different.

Market psychology of course is only personal psychology collectivised and I doubt many good traders are not looking at that everyday ? I know I do ,it's part of the game trying to read the price action to second guess where the stops and limit orders are as we of course cannot see them without the order book....if we werre not doing this then of course we would not spend so much time looking for action at points of support and resistance...this is psychology ,but perhaps we don't always realise it ?

wasp · Apr 8, 2008

Sounds like you're risking too much chump!

chump said:
I'm pretty sure you're right that everyday traders don't spend too much time considering personal psychology etc, they shouldn't do if they are any good, BUT if the implication is that personal psychology is not important I'd say you are so far off base that the base is not even in sight and that is because of your viewpoint.
I might be wrong about that and if so I'd apologise ,but at this point I don't think I am.

Clocking in and out of a place of work everyday where you are shuffling relatively small amounts of personal capital ,or indeed trading large amounts of other people's capital is absolutely nothing like trying to consistently manage your entire personal net worth and of course as you get older what that means to you also changes. When you're younger, taking chances to me anyway, was a completely different fish from what it is now.

You type as if you are trading every penny of your pension on every trade chump. If you are running as succesfully and as well as any seasoned home trader should be and I suspect you are, then the percentage of your 'personal net worth' will be small enough to be acceptable loss yet still large enough to make a difference in life.

When I place a trade, I'm not taking chances, nor am I causing major effects to my personal worth in a way that I am taking a chance. With sensible money management, its just the right amout to do the job whilst not causing a nerve to fall out of place. Much like clocking in and out of a job.

People are too quick to forget all trading is. In the words of Michael Corleone... Its not personal, its just business.

chump said:
When I say personal psychology is important it doesn't mean you spend your life navel gazing . It does mean that you never lose sight or awareness of what you are doing and why you are doing it. If I had a pound for every guy I have met who didn't do that and lived to rue it I'd be even more comfortable than I am....don't think the point is valid ? please email Victor Niederhoffer or get a medium to have a chat with Livermore...they're just two extreme examples of the many less exagerated cases that are there to be found everyday of the year. Let's not even talk about them as individuals ,let's call then Hedgies with very 'smart' people at the helm...well if they are that smart why are so many so flucked ? ...if putting on weight is just the small indisciplines that people take everyday then losing your shirt pushing that bit too hard is no different.

This is business, not weight watchers chump! If one pushes too hard and risks too much then more fool them. If you use common sense prior to market opening then you are free to trade confidently and successfully. Naturally a good business plan will incorporate your reasons for why and how and thus, when the market is open your concentration can be solely on reading the players, not nailing your sleeve to the desk so your arm don't shake.

chump said:
Market psychology of course is only personal psychology collectivised and I doubt many good traders are not looking at that everyday ? I know I do ,it's part of the game trying to read the price action to second guess where the stops and limit orders are as we of course cannot see them without the order book....if we werre not doing this then of course we would not spend so much time looking for action at points of support and resistance...this is psychology ,but perhaps we don't always realise it ?

Market psychology is a whole different ball game and agree wholeheartedly that without paying attention to that you can't seriously analyze price, but thats not what I meant when opening the thread.

chump · Apr 8, 2008

wasp said:
You type as if you are trading every penny of your pension on every trade chump. If you are running as succesfully and as well as any seasoned home trader should be and I suspect you are, then the percentage of your 'personal net worth' will be small enough to be acceptable loss yet still large enough to make a difference in life.

When I place a trade, I'm not taking chances, nor am I causing major effects to my personal worth in a way that I am taking a chance. With sensible money management, its just the right amout to do the job whilst not causing a nerve to fall out of place. Much like clocking in and out of a job.

People are too quick to forget all trading is. In the words of Michael Corleone... Its not personal, its just business.

This is business, not weight watchers chump! If one pushes too hard and risks too much then more fool them. If you use common sense prior to market opening then you are free to trade confidently and successfully. Naturally a good business plan will incorporate your reasons for why and how and thus, when the market is open your concentration can be solely on reading the players, not nailing your sleeve to the desk so your arm don't shake.

Market psychology is a whole different ball game and agree wholeheartedly that without paying attention to that you can't seriously analyze price, but thats not what I meant when opening the thread.

Apologies Wasp. But you don't understand which in truth I didn't think you would and you won't until you get the reality of a different viewpoint. I can't give you that and I doubt you'd thank me for trying so let's just leave it there.

0007 · Apr 8, 2008

wasp said:
If you are running as succesfully and as well as any seasoned home trader should be and I suspect you are, then the percentage of your 'personal net worth' will be small enough to be acceptable loss yet still large enough to make a difference in life.

When I place a trade, I'm not taking chances, nor am I causing major effects to my personal worth in a way that I am taking a chance. With sensible money management, its just the right amout to do the job whilst not causing a nerve to fall out of place. Much like clocking in and out of a job.

People are too quick to forget all trading is. In the words of Michael Corleone... Its not personal, its just business.

That strikes a real chord with me - especially the blue bits. When I started to get the hang of this trading business i found it just becomes routine, with its ups and downs and occasional hiccup but nevertheless routine. Just like life, just like most people's everyday.

As you imply.... that's the way you want it.

TheBramble · Apr 8, 2008

chump said:
Apologies Wasp. But you don't understand which in truth I didn't think you would and you won't until you get the reality of a different viewpoint.

The problem I have is knowing which one and when any of my viewpoints represents current reality. I have an increasing sense that the act of deciding or adopting any sepcific view or perspective causes reality to change.

What initially indicated to me a pointlessness of potentially absolute magnitude in any endeavour translates itself into a very workable basis for operations if you can stop laughing long enough.

Loeb helped.

Overdoing it

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