Why you shouldn't demo trade

This is a discussion on Why you shouldn't demo trade within the General Trading Chat forums, part of the Reception category; Originally Posted by Quantt Yeh, we agree to disagree on this one... I would not sell my algo, even for ...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Sep 2, 2017, 3:27pm   #16
 
Lee Shepherd's Avatar
Joined Feb 2008
Lee Shepherd started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantt View Post
Yeh, we agree to disagree on this one... I would not sell my algo, even for 8 digit offer, because it generates me very nice income, which is compounding at very good rate and one day I can leave it to my son when he grows up... this is the perfect passive income business for me, totally location independent and it will work as long as people are trading the stock market...
Again, sorry mate but to me your post makes very little sense at all.

Only a few people will understand what I mean.
__________________
Check out Lee Shepherds Trading Diary:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trad...ing-diary.html

If you want help/advice see here:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gene...-any-help.html
Lee Shepherd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 3:30pm   #17
Joined Apr 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Shepherd View Post
Sorry mate but I strongly disagree.

You can play games (board or console) as much as you want but when it comes to being live with cash, people act very differently, people feel very differently.

Nothing can prepare you for losing money like losing money.
That depends on how seriously you take demo losses and how you react to them, if your mind is trained to react to demo as real , any loss will have same impact.

In reality stress responses testosterone and emotions do kick out on live account.
foroom lluzers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 3:33pm   #18
 
Quantt's Avatar
Joined Jul 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Shepherd View Post
Again, sorry mate but to me your post makes very little sense at all.

Only a few people will understand what I mean.
Same here, I am also sorry you cannot understand the beauty of the systematic algorithmic trading,,,
__________________
"If you don't find a way to make money while you sleep, you will work until you die." Warren Buffett, CEO of Berkshire Hathaway.

Count de Money number 1 trading rule: EDUCATE YOURSELF!

Before you trade even single penny on the stock market, please spend the time and educate yourself by back testing different trading strategies and ideas - go to eBay and search for "historical stock market data", you can buy 20 years of data for less than $100 - that's all you need to start.
Quantt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 3:34pm   #19
Joined Apr 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantt View Post
Same here, I am also sorry you cannot understand the beauty of the systematic algorithmic trading,,,
Just cause you use fancy Nick to impress us , we would like to see some real evidence .
foroom lluzers is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: Lee Shepherd
Old Sep 2, 2017, 3:39pm   #20
 
Lee Shepherd's Avatar
Joined Feb 2008
Lee Shepherd started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by foroom lluzers View Post
That depends on how seriously you take demo losses and how you react to them, if your mind is trained to react to demo as real , any loss will have same impact.

In reality stress responses testosterone and emotions do kick out on live account.
Again (with respect) but I disagree.

#notmakingmanyfriendstoday.

Demo does not take money out of your bank account, nor does it have to explain to the wife/husband where the money has gone.

Demo is not real, whether you pretend or feel that it is, it is not and never will be.

You can prepare your mind to be kicked in the balls but until it happens, it is pure speculation and when it does happen, it makes you feel sick.
__________________
Check out Lee Shepherds Trading Diary:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trad...ing-diary.html

If you want help/advice see here:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gene...-any-help.html
Lee Shepherd is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: IceMan
Old Sep 2, 2017, 3:46pm   #21
 
Quantt's Avatar
Joined Jul 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by foroom lluzers View Post
Just cause you use fancy Nick to impress us , we would like to see some real evidence .
I am not here to prove anything to anyone, my two goals are: get new trading ideas (I am always on the lookout, but yet to happen) and give another perspective to the new traders (the old ones are beyond hope, as we can see) and try to protect them from the so called trading educator scammers, which are giving a very bad name of the trading community as a whole...
__________________
"If you don't find a way to make money while you sleep, you will work until you die." Warren Buffett, CEO of Berkshire Hathaway.

Count de Money number 1 trading rule: EDUCATE YOURSELF!

Before you trade even single penny on the stock market, please spend the time and educate yourself by back testing different trading strategies and ideas - go to eBay and search for "historical stock market data", you can buy 20 years of data for less than $100 - that's all you need to start.
Quantt is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: dbphoenix
Old Sep 2, 2017, 3:53pm   #22
Joined Apr 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Shepherd View Post
Again (with respect) but I disagree.

#notmakingmanyfriendstoday.

Demo does not take money out of your bank account, nor does it have to explain to the wife/husband where the money has gone.

Demo is not real, whether you pretend or feel that it is, it is not and never will be.

You can prepare your mind to be kicked in the balls but until it happens, it is pure speculation and when it does happen, it makes you feel sick.
If you had to run a business and had to pay out £40,000 in expenses/losses , how will you cope?
foroom lluzers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 4:00pm   #23
 
Lee Shepherd's Avatar
Joined Feb 2008
Lee Shepherd started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by foroom lluzers View Post
If you had to run a business and had to pay out £40,000 in expenses/losses , how will you cope?
You're either avoiding the point or choosing not to understand. And I don't believe that for a moment as by the wording of your posts, you're very intelligent.

In answer to your question, you can plan all you want but until....again this bit is the important bit, until you are in that position, you never know how you will behave.

People are very strange and varied. Many business men report losing their wives as well as their business, which comes first?

Was it the marriage break up that changed the mindset which failed the business or was it the other way round???

These are good questions which most don't actually ever know the answer to as its kind of irrelevant as what has happened has happened. Just as much as the failed business man coming home and blowing his brains out or jumping off a building. Why??? over money?? I bet you a fiver that was never planned nor was it foreseen.
__________________
Check out Lee Shepherds Trading Diary:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trad...ing-diary.html

If you want help/advice see here:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gene...-any-help.html
Lee Shepherd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 4:09pm   #24
Joined Apr 2016
Noob. Even darkie is ahead of you by 3 years, and he's only a math teacher.
EnlightenedJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 4:11pm   #25
Joined Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Shepherd View Post
No, this is wrong (sorry bud).

There is no system or edge or algo. If there was you would sell it to the highest bidder.

Back testing is also a total waste of time as we curve fit until we think it works then forward test it live but still is bollox - it's nothing but pure chance. Its about the money on the line and you as the trader.
Have to agree with Lee, the market aint rigid, its alive, it moves on other's decisions, for whatever the reason.

Take yesterday for example, a sell signal at the open (Dow) - cool, the bot sells the signal, BUT NQ once again holds up, meaning the Dow cant fall anymore at that point.

So the Bot losses or takes BE as price moves back up, but the trader (the edge) spots this and takes 75% of the possible trade range. There are far too many variables for anything robotic/numeric to have any real advantage over (just) random if traded in ALL market conditions.

If anyone does have such a weapon, you sell it for a few million (business), then trade on demo for the passion (as not to get bored). But it makes no sense to keep a bot if only making a few £$k per week, when the multiplied value if sold to a fund is in the millions. Well it dont to me anyway.
wallstreetwarrior87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: Lee Shepherd
Old Sep 2, 2017, 4:22pm   #26
Joined Apr 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Shepherd View Post
There is no system, it doesn't exist.
I will give this to you in very simple terms.There is a system but most people don't know.

Take option formula , price is calculated based on historical data , if price is 100 ticks for open to close average , the option price will be 100 from the mid to the top or 100 from the mid to the bottom , that is 200 ticks volatility max , for max premium of of 100 .

In reality premium is 70 , which makes it 35 for up and 35 for down bet (put).If you buy the up bet for 35 , at the advantageous price , you will get 100 , a net profit of 65.

Add to that equation , the stocks are 75% of the time long biased , so buy the up bets called call options , and you have a profitable system.

When you have system , you expect to lose , something you are not mentally prepared for .When you put on the trade , you made analysis or emotional trades , if it fails it will insult your intelligence and self worth , something you are not mentally prepared for.It will also arouse the enemy within , as often said the many psychological demons within.

I suggest you do "daily mental preparations for losing " and prepare a mindset "ready to lose".You will be ready to behave properly , until the market does not dance to your thinking and beliefs.
foroom lluzers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 4:25pm   #27
 
Quantt's Avatar
Joined Jul 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by foroom lluzers View Post
I will give this to you in very simple terms.There is a system but most people don't know.
Yep, you are absolutely right and that's why the majority can't make money in the stock market...
__________________
"If you don't find a way to make money while you sleep, you will work until you die." Warren Buffett, CEO of Berkshire Hathaway.

Count de Money number 1 trading rule: EDUCATE YOURSELF!

Before you trade even single penny on the stock market, please spend the time and educate yourself by back testing different trading strategies and ideas - go to eBay and search for "historical stock market data", you can buy 20 years of data for less than $100 - that's all you need to start.
Quantt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 4:29pm   #28
 
Lee Shepherd's Avatar
Joined Feb 2008
Lee Shepherd started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallstreetwarrior87 View Post
Have to agree with Lee, the market aint rigid, its alive, it moves on other's decisions, for whatever the reason.

Take yesterday for example, a sell signal at the open (Dow) - cool, the bot sells the signal, BUT NQ once again holds up, meaning the Dow cant fall anymore at that point.

So the Bot losses or takes BE as price moves back up, but the trader (the edge) spots this and takes 75% of the possible trade range. There are far too many variables for anything robotic/numeric to have any real advantage over (just) random if traded in ALL market conditions.

If anyone does have such a weapon, you sell it for a few million (business), then trade on demo for the passion (as not to get bored). But it makes no sense to keep a bot if only making a few £$k per week, when the multiplied value if sold to a fund is in the millions. Well it dont to me anyway.

Phew and f**k me. I have a friend. I knew it wouldn't be too long but thought it would have been quicker.

@ Wallstreetwarrior - You get my point. I knew most wouldn't and many still won't whether they wish to argue the point or not. They are only arguing with themselves and even once they realise that their system, algo or whatever fails,they'll blame something else but will never come out and admit it. They will simply suffer in silence as they lose more money and time. They will never admit that its them!!!

It will always be something or someone else's fault and is why when offered help for free on a trading site by a transparent and open trader, does not ask for the help offered.

@all others - You make a system or algo and the professional traders out there will be working hard all day to destroy it and destroy you in the process, however little money you make.

By the time you have figured out that something works (even by chance), the other traders will come along and break it for you like a naughty bully in the playground. How else will they make their money - it comes from you, plus a little to your broker.
__________________
Check out Lee Shepherds Trading Diary:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trad...ing-diary.html

If you want help/advice see here:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gene...-any-help.html
Lee Shepherd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sep 2, 2017, 4:36pm   #29
Joined Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by foroom lluzers View Post

In reality premium is 70 , which makes it 35 for up and 35 for down bet (put).If you buy the up bet for 35 , at the advantageous price , you will get 100 , a net profit of 65.

Some of the points are valid, BUT as I have underlined, you are adding YOURSELF into the equation when you use the term "advantageous". What is advantageous? how do you know when it is etc??

Yes you have some rules/guidelines, but the interaction with yourself makes it alive.

Anyone with advanced coding skills - can you please show me how we code "advantageous" into a system.

That's the point thats being made ( I think lol). Your post is not far off the mark, and may very well be "workable" under historic price values, but volatility changes as does direction.
wallstreetwarrior87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: Lee Shepherd
Old Sep 2, 2017, 4:37pm   #30
 
Lee Shepherd's Avatar
Joined Feb 2008
Lee Shepherd started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by foroom lluzers View Post
I will give this to you in very simple terms.There is a system but most people don't know.

Take option formula , price is calculated based on historical data , if price is 100 ticks for open to close average , the option price will be 100 from the mid to the top or 100 from the mid to the bottom , that is 200 ticks volatility max , for max premium of of 100 .

In reality premium is 70 , which makes it 35 for up and 35 for down bet (put).If you buy the up bet for 35 , at the advantageous price , you will get 100 , a net profit of 65.

Add to that equation , the stocks are 75% of the time long biased , so buy the up bets called call options , and you have a profitable system.

When you have system , you expect to lose , something you are not mentally prepared for .When you put on the trade , you made analysis or emotional trades , if it fails it will insult your intelligence and self worth , something you are not mentally prepared for.It will also arouse the enemy within , as often said the many psychological demons within.

I suggest you do "daily mental preparations for losing " and prepare a mindset "ready to lose".You will be ready to behave properly , until the market does not dance to your thinking and beliefs.
Again great post Foroom. Please don't see this is as an attack....it is not... just merely facts.

You yourself have been guilty of hiding losses. Nothing to be ashamed of mate, most do this. But why???? Who cares???? You have also not been open and transparent with your trades and have missing days..even still... for which I have not brought up of late.

Again, I need to reiterate this, this is not an attack:

However, you have presented which seems to be a good system, of course, on paper, it looks great. Why don't we all do this on Monday morning and everyone on T2W will be profitable. Then we can all meet up in our hundreds and swing our d1cks around. You know the answer to this one though. You haven't made it profitable. Now...Only you can refute this...and... the only way is to provide your P/L. I do it...its no big deal. Cards on the table.. not just talk.
__________________
Check out Lee Shepherds Trading Diary:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trad...ing-diary.html

If you want help/advice see here:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gene...-any-help.html
Lee Shepherd is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: wallstreetwarrior87
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you know when you *shouldn't* be trading? BigLoveBug General Trading Chat 26 Dec 29, 2017 9:41pm
demo trade futures Garfield1971 First Steps 2 Jul 8, 2013 7:28am
metatrader 4 - how to trade on demo?! BetTreader Trading Software 1 Jun 18, 2010 1:46am
looking for future demo trade or free charting to paper trade?? doctrader Technical Analysis 3 Dec 3, 2005 4:07pm

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)