Trading the DOM/Tape

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Old Jan 25, 2018, 11:19pm   #1
 
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Trading the DOM/Tape

Many ex pro-traders are proposing seminars and webinars to teach retail traders about it, obviously not for free.

There are also payed platforms built specifically for that type of trading, ATAS, Bookmap, Jigsaw, ....etc.

But i can't help thinking that there is no edge in it, if the only thing you have to do is to figure out iceberg orders, volatility and monitor order flow an AI can do it, in fact an AI will do it faster and more accurately. we can't compete with them.

Last edited by tylerbose; Jan 26, 2018 at 12:24am.
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Old Jan 26, 2018, 10:28am   #2
 
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It's just a way to read market activity.

Every trade doesn't have to be a competition - you against the market.

The market can only go up and down - it's all about using information to stay on the right side of that.
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Old Jan 26, 2018, 11:54am   #3
 
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tylerbose started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by DionysusToast View Post
It's just a way to read market activity.

Every trade doesn't have to be a competition - you against the market.

The market can only go up and down - it's all about using information to stay on the right side of that.

Thank you, but like i said what information you'll get from reading the tape bots will get too and they'll always react faster.
It's a bit like trading the news spike, pro firms have extremely low latency execution, they are fast enough to get filled at the start of the spike, us retail will be lucky to get filed near the end of it, most of the time we're not that lucky.

Trading is all about being ahead, but when algos can do what you do, chances are you wont be able to be ahead of them.

Am i wrong?

Last edited by tylerbose; Jan 26, 2018 at 3:44pm.
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Old Jan 28, 2018, 5:15pm   #4
 
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Originally Posted by tylerbose View Post
Thank you, but like i said what information you'll get from reading the tape bots will get too and they'll always react faster.
It's a bit like trading the news spike, pro firms have extremely low latency execution, they are fast enough to get filled at the start of the spike, us retail will be lucky to get filed near the end of it, most of the time we're not that lucky.

Trading is all about being ahead, but when algos can do what you do, chances are you wont be able to be ahead of them.

Am i wrong?
Yes, you are wrong.

The picture you paint is based on what you think happens, not what actually happens. You have not been in these 'pro firms' you speak of, so you are speculating on what happens.

Trading news is a very specialist thing. It involves being aware of 'tells' in the market ahead of the news. There are patterns that might exist for just a few months on specific new events that you can take advantage of - but then disappear.

I know a firm that trades news, it's got bugger all to do with being first at anything.

In your world of imaginary firms, with imaginary edges, then yes of course you can imagine that some traders get left behind.

But let me ask you - what is the point 'above' DOM trading that can actually make money and why? So maybe you see DOM trading as a millisecond thing and some other trading as a 20-second thing. How is it the computers are NOT faster at 20 second trading or 1-day trading or 1-week trading? Why does your explanation only apply to this specific type of trading?

Basically, you are asking for people to debate you based on your made up hypothetical opinions. This is very tough because you could just make up some other hypotheticals in response.

The easy answer is this - it will NOT work for you - because you already decided it wont.
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Last edited by DionysusToast; Jan 28, 2018 at 5:21pm.
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Old Jan 29, 2018, 7:24pm   #5
 
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tylerbose started this thread When someone tell me that something exist while there is no proof of it, or worse that logic suggest it doesn't, i tend to believe the said thing doesn't exist.
What you call "assumption" is a healthy skepticism, a scientific and rational way of dealing with the unknown.

I have no personal interest in discrediting nor promoting that type of trading.
in the end of the day you don't know when a big player will hit the button nor where iceberg orders are.
The market can still flip against you because one large guy decided to and there is nothing in the DOM that will show you when that happen.

As far as i'm considered the DOM is as useful to predict the market next move as a MACD or an RSI indicator. Its mostly "magic", ifit works thats good if it doesn't....eh it happens.
The truth is there is no pattern in either, the indicators because they never had an edge in the first place, the DOM because institutional can hide and BOT just add more noise.

This is voodoo.
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Old Jan 30, 2018, 12:17pm   #6
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Tylerbose -

I'm not going to get into a discussion about whether reading tape 'works' or not, because I simply don't know. It's not the way I trade.

However, trading (any style) is about percentages. If you can find a pattern that works, say 60-70% of the time, provided your target is greater than your stop loss, then you're in the money.

So that is what DT is talking about. Find a pattern that works, then exploit it. The pattern may only work in the short term, it may work for years. But when you find it, there's money to be made.

The big player may come along every now and then and chuck in a huge order that will screw up your trade, but this won't happen EVERY time.


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Old Jan 30, 2018, 1:41pm   #7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerbose View Post
When someone tell me that something exist while there is no proof of it, or worse that logic suggest it doesn't, i tend to believe the said thing doesn't exist.
What you call "assumption" is a healthy skepticism, a scientific and rational way of dealing with the unknown.

I have no personal interest in discrediting nor promoting that type of trading.
in the end of the day you don't know when a big player will hit the button nor where iceberg orders are.
The market can still flip against you because one large guy decided to and there is nothing in the DOM that will show you when that happen.

As far as i'm considered the DOM is as useful to predict the market next move as a MACD or an RSI indicator. Its mostly "magic", ifit works thats good if it doesn't....eh it happens.
The truth is there is no pattern in either, the indicators because they never had an edge in the first place, the DOM because institutional can hide and BOT just add more noise.

This is voodoo.

Something exists because proprietary trading firms use it every day and profit from it.

Trouble is - you have not stepped inside a proprietary trading firm and so you are projecting.

So your points are all based on attempts at making logic-based but not fact-based arguments.

But the bottom line for you is - it will absolutely not work for you.
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Old Feb 10, 2018, 12:45am   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerbose View Post
Many ex pro-traders are proposing seminars and webinars to teach retail traders about it, obviously not for free.

There are also payed platforms built specifically for that type of trading, ATAS, Bookmap, Jigsaw, ....etc.

But i can't help thinking that there is no edge in it, if the only thing you have to do is to figure out iceberg orders, volatility and monitor order flow an AI can do it, in fact an AI will do it faster and more accurately. we can't compete with them.
I used years, but i didnt see anymore important information because algos are programed to show very wrong informations...

Iceberg is only when you dont know where are the high probability trading location..

Only a market maker with a nice background will know where are the high probability trade locations in naked chart.

You can look for some of trades i this link bellow and try to figure out is possible trade without footprint or iceberg...

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