Trading the DOM/Tape

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Old Jan 25, 2018, 10:19pm   #1
 
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Trading the DOM/Tape

Many ex pro-traders are proposing seminars and webinars to teach retail traders about it, obviously not for free.

There are also payed platforms built specifically for that type of trading, ATAS, Bookmap, Jigsaw, ....etc.

But i can't help thinking that there is no edge in it, if the only thing you have to do is to figure out iceberg orders, volatility and monitor order flow an AI can do it, in fact an AI will do it faster and more accurately. we can't compete with them.

Last edited by tylerbose; Jan 25, 2018 at 11:24pm.
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Old Jan 26, 2018, 9:28am   #2
 
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It's just a way to read market activity.

Every trade doesn't have to be a competition - you against the market.

The market can only go up and down - it's all about using information to stay on the right side of that.
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Old Jan 26, 2018, 10:54am   #3
 
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tylerbose started this thread
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Originally Posted by DionysusToast View Post
It's just a way to read market activity.

Every trade doesn't have to be a competition - you against the market.

The market can only go up and down - it's all about using information to stay on the right side of that.

Thank you, but like i said what information you'll get from reading the tape bots will get too and they'll always react faster.
It's a bit like trading the news spike, pro firms have extremely low latency execution, they are fast enough to get filled at the start of the spike, us retail will be lucky to get filed near the end of it, most of the time we're not that lucky.

Trading is all about being ahead, but when algos can do what you do, chances are you wont be able to be ahead of them.

Am i wrong?

Last edited by tylerbose; Jan 26, 2018 at 2:44pm.
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Old Jan 28, 2018, 4:15pm   #4
 
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Originally Posted by tylerbose View Post
Thank you, but like i said what information you'll get from reading the tape bots will get too and they'll always react faster.
It's a bit like trading the news spike, pro firms have extremely low latency execution, they are fast enough to get filled at the start of the spike, us retail will be lucky to get filed near the end of it, most of the time we're not that lucky.

Trading is all about being ahead, but when algos can do what you do, chances are you wont be able to be ahead of them.

Am i wrong?
Yes, you are wrong.

The picture you paint is based on what you think happens, not what actually happens. You have not been in these 'pro firms' you speak of, so you are speculating on what happens.

Trading news is a very specialist thing. It involves being aware of 'tells' in the market ahead of the news. There are patterns that might exist for just a few months on specific new events that you can take advantage of - but then disappear.

I know a firm that trades news, it's got bugger all to do with being first at anything.

In your world of imaginary firms, with imaginary edges, then yes of course you can imagine that some traders get left behind.

But let me ask you - what is the point 'above' DOM trading that can actually make money and why? So maybe you see DOM trading as a millisecond thing and some other trading as a 20-second thing. How is it the computers are NOT faster at 20 second trading or 1-day trading or 1-week trading? Why does your explanation only apply to this specific type of trading?

Basically, you are asking for people to debate you based on your made up hypothetical opinions. This is very tough because you could just make up some other hypotheticals in response.

The easy answer is this - it will NOT work for you - because you already decided it wont.
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Old Jan 29, 2018, 6:24pm   #5
 
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tylerbose started this thread When someone tell me that something exist while there is no proof of it, or worse that logic suggest it doesn't, i tend to believe the said thing doesn't exist.
What you call "assumption" is a healthy skepticism, a scientific and rational way of dealing with the unknown.

I have no personal interest in discrediting nor promoting that type of trading.
in the end of the day you don't know when a big player will hit the button nor where iceberg orders are.
The market can still flip against you because one large guy decided to and there is nothing in the DOM that will show you when that happen.

As far as i'm considered the DOM is as useful to predict the market next move as a MACD or an RSI indicator. Its mostly "magic", ifit works thats good if it doesn't....eh it happens.
The truth is there is no pattern in either, the indicators because they never had an edge in the first place, the DOM because institutional can hide and BOT just add more noise.

This is voodoo.
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Old Jan 30, 2018, 11:17am   #6
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Tylerbose -

I'm not going to get into a discussion about whether reading tape 'works' or not, because I simply don't know. It's not the way I trade.

However, trading (any style) is about percentages. If you can find a pattern that works, say 60-70% of the time, provided your target is greater than your stop loss, then you're in the money.

So that is what DT is talking about. Find a pattern that works, then exploit it. The pattern may only work in the short term, it may work for years. But when you find it, there's money to be made.

The big player may come along every now and then and chuck in a huge order that will screw up your trade, but this won't happen EVERY time.


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Old Jan 30, 2018, 12:41pm   #7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerbose View Post
When someone tell me that something exist while there is no proof of it, or worse that logic suggest it doesn't, i tend to believe the said thing doesn't exist.
What you call "assumption" is a healthy skepticism, a scientific and rational way of dealing with the unknown.

I have no personal interest in discrediting nor promoting that type of trading.
in the end of the day you don't know when a big player will hit the button nor where iceberg orders are.
The market can still flip against you because one large guy decided to and there is nothing in the DOM that will show you when that happen.

As far as i'm considered the DOM is as useful to predict the market next move as a MACD or an RSI indicator. Its mostly "magic", ifit works thats good if it doesn't....eh it happens.
The truth is there is no pattern in either, the indicators because they never had an edge in the first place, the DOM because institutional can hide and BOT just add more noise.

This is voodoo.

Something exists because proprietary trading firms use it every day and profit from it.

Trouble is - you have not stepped inside a proprietary trading firm and so you are projecting.

So your points are all based on attempts at making logic-based but not fact-based arguments.

But the bottom line for you is - it will absolutely not work for you.
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Old Feb 9, 2018, 11:45pm   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerbose View Post
Many ex pro-traders are proposing seminars and webinars to teach retail traders about it, obviously not for free.

There are also payed platforms built specifically for that type of trading, ATAS, Bookmap, Jigsaw, ....etc.

But i can't help thinking that there is no edge in it, if the only thing you have to do is to figure out iceberg orders, volatility and monitor order flow an AI can do it, in fact an AI will do it faster and more accurately. we can't compete with them.
I used years, but i didnt see anymore important information because algos are programed to show very wrong informations...

Iceberg is only when you dont know where are the high probability trading location..

Only a market maker with a nice background will know where are the high probability trade locations in naked chart.

You can look for some of trades i this link bellow and try to figure out is possible trade without footprint or iceberg...

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Old Feb 10, 2018, 11:20am   #9
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Originally Posted by RachasfromPortugal View Post
I used years, but i didnt see anymore important information because algos are programed to show very wrong informations...

Iceberg is only when you dont know where are the high probability trading location..

Only a market maker with a nice background will know where are the high probability trade locations in naked chart.

You can look for some of trades i this link bellow and try to figure out is possible trade without footprint or iceberg...
looks good thanks. it was difficult to tell what was going on with your positions though, maybe include an "open trades" window or something in your videos?
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Old Feb 10, 2018, 11:52am   #10
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Well, Is not easy understand my trades because most of traders have a very diferent trading education. A soon you understand where price can bounce in a precise price level, you will understand why i took some trades...

The problem of a 99% of traders, he waiting for 1 , 2 , 3, 10 times confirmation to get in position, that means need 1 2 3 patterm, or Head and shoulder, or M/W structure or trend like breack...and traders like me will close position when most of traders get in, because they go too late in trade...

If you see my daytrades, every trade i took is very very agressive, because i know where price will bounce in advance, sometimes iam wrong and of course and i have a stop..

Ig you like to trade with bookmap X, to see iceberg, go ahead...but i can tell you most of times when you see a iceberg, most of times will disapear in milisecond, because algos will change his limit orders ...

I go honest with you, everyone can learn the why i trade, but is not everyone will sepend years try to understand market to trade like me, and like market makers trade...

Hope it helps.
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Old Feb 10, 2018, 12:05pm   #11
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Ok, let me tell you about algos...

Algos are programed many many years with the same organic software, algos are litle diferent if trading dax, or forex, or SP500, but the very very basic principle is the same many many years...

First of all, algos have a specific entry point to go short or to go long, and yes, this knoledge is a 1 Milion Knoledge, has soon you know where are this trade location, you will get money in markets..

Algos when price comes to this entry point, will absorve all orders of traders, will hold price at this point and them, will trade againts puting a lot of orders to push price in every tick in price level, this kind of orders are a market orders, and not a limit orders to absorve contracts to hold a price level. When traders want to jump in a trade to go in a new direction, algos will close all orders and make the same process again and again to give liquidity to the market with money of traders..

Market makers will trade the way the algos are programed, because is the only way to get money in market...

Is impossible to trade agains Algos yes, but is very possible to trade with the algos in same direction...

Let me tell all of you, i dont have any system to sell, and no mentorship to sell, but i show in my day trades is possible to trade like algos trade...

Hope it helps.
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Old Feb 10, 2018, 12:10pm   #12
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Originally Posted by RachasfromPortugal View Post
Well, Is not easy understand my trades because most of traders have a very diferent trading education. A soon you understand where price can bounce in a precise price level, you will understand why i took some trades...
i only meant that in the video you cannot tell what trade is open or closed etc

i am not talking about the reason for trades, although that is of interest of course
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Old Feb 10, 2018, 12:14pm   #13
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i only meant that in the video you cannot tell what trade is open or closed etc

i am not talking about the reason for trades, although that is of interest of course
In my videos, i show every trade i take, i show every long and every short position man...this is a ninjatrader Plataform... in this video maybe i take 10 trades in 7 min..
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Old Feb 10, 2018, 12:37pm   #14
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In my videos, i show every trade i take, i show every long and every short position man...this is a ninjatrader Plataform... in this video maybe i take 10 trades in 7 min..
i see, well i was just giving feedback that it is not easy to follow what is happening in terms of P/L, for someone watching the video

Quote:
Originally Posted by RachasfromPortugal View Post
Algos are programed many many years with the same organic software, algos are litle diferent if trading dax, or forex, or SP500, but the very very basic principle is the same many many years...

First of all, algos have a specific entry point to go short or to go long, and yes, this knoledge is a 1 Milion Knoledge, has soon you know where are this trade location, you will get money in markets..

Algos when price comes to this entry point, will absorve all orders of traders, will hold price at this point and them, will trade againts puting a lot of orders to push price in every tick in price level, this kind of orders are a market orders, and not a limit orders to absorve contracts to hold a price level. When traders want to jump in a trade to go in a new direction, algos will close all orders and make the same process again and again to give liquidity to the market with money of traders..

thanks for the info, can you give an example of who is running these algos that will adsorb all orders? and on what market?
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Old Feb 10, 2018, 12:43pm   #15
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i see, well i was just giving feedback that it is not easy to follow what is happening for someone watching the video



thanks for the info, can you give an example of who is running these algos that will adsorb all orders? and on what market?
Algos work 24h in all markets in the world..Algos is a software running in very very powerfull computers, who? the very big companys and institutionas in world, like banks, etc...They profit a milion dolar each Minute...Who you think moves market 24h day to go higher or go lower? Algos!

Algos have a Milion Dollar Acount, they can hold the market where they want, and drive market againnst the direction to take all Stops of traders...this is to give liquidity in market...Market only have liquidity if someone lose money, hehe

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