Tobin tax in 11 euronations: the beginning of the end?

Van 't Beste

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For options and futures traders around the globe,

Does this tax mark the end of our business? Do you count on the financial powers and states with more clever politicians to impede its implementation?

Your opinion please! (y)
 
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I don't trade options or futures on forex, but a tax on currency exchange sounds like the powers-that-be are are just trying to siphon off wealth wherever they can!
 
Such a tax will probably never be implemented globally, or is that wishful thinking?
I mean like countries with an ambition to become financial superpowers (China and Russia for instance) will most likely send taxes like these right to the bin!
 
London won't do it IMO - if Germany does, Eurex will move there.

I reckon UK would leave the Euro rather than implementing this.
 
London, Singapore, Hong Kong, Toronto,.. and other financial cities will never let this happen according to you? The industry is as such certain of its further existence?
 
London, Singapore, Hong Kong, Toronto,.. and other financial cities will never let this happen according to you? The industry is as such certain of its further existence?

I didn't mention anywhere other than London did I?

Nothing to do with "the industry", very much to do with "the government" in the UK. The industry wouldn't really need to lobby against this in the UK because the government can't afford for it to go elsewhere.
 
I didn't mention anywhere other than London did I?

Nothing to do with "the industry", very much to do with "the government" in the UK. The industry wouldn't really need to lobby against this in the UK because the government can't afford for it to go elsewhere.

As far as the current govt. goes, that is perfectly true,
in fact Osbourne has hinted the UK would not support the FTT
even with global adoption:
Govt tells banks it will not support EU's financial transaction tax | News | Money Marketing

The same certainly can not be said of Labour though:
Miliband gives support on financial transaction tax | News | Money Marketing

More recently, Labour support of the FTT is not going away:
The UK could support an FTT by 2015 | International Tax Review

Also, Labour have been pushing for support in America:
Labour pushes Democrats for a Robinhood Tax | Liberal Conspiracy
IPS – Europeans Urge U.S. Action on Financial Transaction Tax | Inter Press Service

Although Obama's stance is unclear, and control of congress is split anyway, adoption in the U.S. unlikely:
After Campaign by Nurses, Allies, Obama Shifts Stance on Financial Transaction Tax | National Nurses United
Obama goes after Wall Street but is silent on FTT | EurActiv
Who Controls Congress | UAW

Even if the FTT did happen in the UK, FX and spreadbetting seem to be off the
target list for now anyway.
Bonds and derivatives are the current targets.
 
I shall cross that bridge when I come to it.

However, nothing would surprise me. Everything that was sacred, including bank deposits, are being taxed and, if the country concerned is in dire straits, everyone and everything in it will be taxed, some things sooner than others.

The best way to avoid paying tax is to be skint.

My dad often made the statement to me "They won't let you die but they won't let you live, either".

If he was alive today he might revise that. "They" don't give a damn whether you live, or die but, if you leave enough for funeral expenses, they will have slipped up, somewhere.
 
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I'd rather prepare for that before, or if, the bridge is built ;)

The best laid plans of mice and men......

What are you going to prepare for? Spend as you go is the best preparation you can find, preferably with a Visa!

Hey! :clap::clap: Cheer up, it may never happen!
 
The best laid plans of mice and men......

What are you going to prepare for? Spend as you go is the best preparation you can find, preferably with a Visa!

Hey! :clap::clap: Cheer up, it may never happen!
Prepare based on the assumption the FTT will happen in the UK.
Thats why I am basing everything I do on FX atm.
If it doesn't happen, no loss.

True about plans, but if you make none, thats even worse.
Then you are floundering, looking for an alternative, instead of already having one in place.
I can guarantee you every firm in Europe will already have pans in place and won't be leaving it to chance.
Cheer has nothing to do with it,
Its purely anticipation.
 
Many thanks for the interesting replies!
So even when the politics (obviously driven by populism) shift in the UK and US, they will most likely lose the supremacy of the City and Wall Street bringing great opportunities for other countries (like Russia or China) to establish FTT-free financial centres, leading to wealth and hope for them and for traders around the globe.

This is how I hope/think it shall unfold. A global FTT is nothing more than a bad dream and no realtiy, nor will it ever be reality!
This debate is great to have though and everyone on this forum should be aware of what an FTT could bring!
 
Prepare based on the assumption the FTT will happen in the UK.
Thats why I am basing everything I do on FX atm.
If it doesn't happen, no loss.

True about plans, but if you make none, thats even worse.
Then you are floundering, looking for an alternative, instead of already having one in place.
I can guarantee you every firm in Europe will already have pans in place and won't be leaving it to chance.
Cheer has nothing to do with it,
Its purely anticipation.

Well, I hope you don't go offshore, to a place like Cyprus. Lots of well-run companies went there and people like me---didn't.

That is not to say that people like me know everything. In fact, no one knows what to do for the best, because those governing make the rules when convenient to themselves---something that we cannot do.

I am not wishing anyone here any harm. What I am trying to say is that sometimes it is best to do nothing. I am not hoping that that bridge has been built because it has been, otherwise I would not have planned to cross it when I get to it. What I cannot know is whether it has been burnt when I get to it. That, no one can know.
 
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Well, I hope you don't go offshore, to a place like Cyprus. Lots of well-run companies went there and people like me---didn't.

That is not to say that people like me know everything. In fact, no one knows what to do for the best, because those governing make the rules when convenient to themselves---something that we cannot do.

I am not wishing anyone here any harm. What I am trying to say is that sometimes it is best to do nothing. I am not hoping that that bridge has been built because it has been, otherwise I would not have planned to cross it when I get to it. What I cannot know is whether it has been burnt when I get to it. That, know one can know.
Fair enough, I know what you mean :)
I agree on Cyprus, thats the last thing I had in mind.
This is more what I was getting at:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/forex/172434-how-can-you-not-make-money-lmax.html
 
Also, Labour have been pushing for support in America:
Labour pushes Democrats for a Robinhood Tax

I like how the politicians push for a name like "Robin Hood" in a bill that would probably wind up benefiting the rich as it always does. I'm sure this bill has good intentions, but the more government adds rules, stipulations, laws, guidelines, punishments, and loopholes, the more opportunity is afforded to those in the know (the rich). The poor is simply too lazy to learn and take advantage. It's never a level playing field.
 
The Financial Transaction Tax was implemented in Italy very recently and is, frankly, nothing to worry about. The other taxes were much worse: a new 0.1 % - 1 per thousand tax on your entire portfolio value and raising the withholding tax to from 12.5% to 20% on dividends and on capital gain, that was awful especially when we consider that shareholders pay a very hefty corporate profit tax which is not recoverable in any way.

Forex transactions are taxed at 20% but you can deduct losses for the year and for four subsequent years. That was the case already before the recent FTT. Forex income is taxed liked income on shares and derivatives. There is no further FTT as far as I know.

Regarding the FTT (or "Tobin tax" as they inexactly call it) it really did not cause problems to day traders.
The terms are as follows:

Share trading.
0,1% (1 per thousand) of the value exchanged, to be paid only by the buying side. That is applied only on transaction on shares which have a capitalization of more than €500m. Day-trading operations are not taxed. There is a specific provision for high-frequency trading (defined as an operation which is opened and closed within one second), but the tax is very low (don't remember now).
If you consider that a spread of 2 per thousand is normal, and a commission on each trade of 2 per thousand is normal, the recent tax raises the total cost of trading from 6 per thousand to 7 per thousand. That is, I repeat, only on certain kind of shares, and only for multi-day operations.

Derivatives (starting from July 1st).
Things are more complicated, but it remains pretty cheap.
The tax is paid always (every instrument, and including day-trades).
The tax is paid according to a table which considers the "notional value" of the contract (the value of the underlying which is controlled by the contract) and the kind of operation.
The tax is NOT due if the underlying is a predominantly foreign index or a foreign stock (!).

Two examples with Covered Warrants:
Buy 2000 CW on the FTSE/MIB. Each CW has a multiplier of 0.0001, you need 10.000 to buy the entire FTSE/MIB (minimum purchasing quantity is 100, 1% of the index). So with 2000 CW you buy 1/5 of the index. The FTSE/MIB is around 17.000 Euros, so you buy €3200 of notional value.
The table says for this transaction you pay €0.0375 (that's right: less than 4 Eurocents). Remember you pay it both when you open the position and when you close it.
With my broker the minimum commission is €2.95. With the tax added, the commission becomes €2.9875. No big difference, shall I say.

NB: the value of the purchase is irrelevant. What counts is the amount of underlying you "control" with the derivative. A purchase of 2000 CWs costs that tax, whether each CW costs €0.30 or €0.03.

A second example, this time wich a CW on a common share.
Let's say you buy 2000 CW on ENI. The multiplier for CWs on common shares is 0.1 (you need ten CWs to "control" one share). So the notional value is ENI * 200 = around €3200.
In the table, for this situation you pay €0.25.

Third example, you buy 2000 CW on FIAT. The notional value is FIAT * 200 = around €1000.
In this case you pay €0.125.

The "problem" with derivatives is that you pay also for intraday activities and if you are the kind of trader that makes 10 or 20 round trips per day, that begins being a tax that is not negligible. (in the second example, 20 round trips means that's €10 Euros per day, which for let's say 200 days of trading means €2000 per year).

The easy escape is to trade a derivative on a foreign index or a foreign share, as said.
Remember you pay the FTT whether you win or lose, it's not a tax on an income.

Even if I made my income from day trading I wouldn't feel the need to emigrate so far. That does not mean I think the tax is well written. It unduly distorts the market by favouring operations on foreign stocks. It's easy to predict that many new instruments will be created on foreign stocks in the near future.
 
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London won't do it IMO - if Germany does, Eurex will move there.

I reckon UK would leave the Euro rather than implementing this.

The UK is one of the few countries which has a FTT since a long time, OK they call it "stamp duty" or whatever, but it's exactly a FTT. The other country that I know has it since long time is Switzerland, recently joined by France (and now Italy).

The Brits had to invent the CFDs and Financial Spread-Betting in order to circumvent the FTT (non tutto il male vien per nuocere, loosely translated as every cloud has a silver lining).
 
It is tough to know for certain if it will happen. Take, take, take is the mantra nowadays.

However, what I feel politicians do not quite understand (I mean they are not the brightest bunch) is that capital as well as individuals are far more mobile in this day and age and there will always be a haven where capital is welcomed and treated accordingly.
 
If the Labour Party get into power in 5 weeks time, they favour introducing the FTT.

What effect will this have in the UK on 1) Spreadbetting 2) Forex account trading

Thanks!
 
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