FuturesBetting? Holy Moly !!

This is a discussion on FuturesBetting? Holy Moly !! within the Futures & Options forums, part of the Markets category; Originally Posted by bootsyjam Yes Jack, but you are dealing directly into those markets, that's the point I'm trying to ...

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Old Jan 7, 2009, 4:46pm   #121
 
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Originally Posted by bootsyjam View Post
Yes Jack, but you are dealing directly into those markets, that's the point I'm trying to make. By doing so, anything that is deemed taxable in the markets by the govt is not so when using an SB firm because you are not buying and selling directly within these taxable markets. Your point that "index futures...also imply no physical ownership of the asset" is correct, but the govt views it as a taxable asset if you deal directly in this market, but doesn't if you SB, so that's enough for me.
If you spreadbet, you remove yourself from actually owning this taxable asset as you are using the shadow market as I explained.
Can you explain your point r.e. income tax? What income tax? There is none if spread betting, nor is there CGT!!
No, I agree with all of that, I was nit-picking on your point of it being based on asset-ownership. The bigger-picture point of course is that spread-betting is taxed - the government do very well taxing the betting companies that profit out of our poor trading, as well as collecting the betting-levy tax on each bet placed (remember the old days when the punter was liable for betting tax on winnings, before the cost was moved onto the bookies?). One way or another you pay for that through your spread, etc. That's why the government isn't too worried about taxing (mostly losing) punters, because it can tax (mostly winning) bookies instead!

The point on income tax was that a trader doesn't pay CGT anyway (assuming trading a taxable asset) - trading is a business and therefore gains are taxed as income either personally as a sole-trader or as a business.
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 5:44pm   #122
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Aha I thought we were on the same page Yep the SB firms have to pay tax (good!) but I'm the son of a bookie so my loyalties are split on the tax issue
I must profess total ignorance to the income tax/CGT issue if trading for a living without a ltd co.
If I trade Eur/USD futures but not as a company, just little old me, I'm aware that I'm liable for CGT, but does income tax come into play? (sorry, it's a bit off topic to the original thread)
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 6:01pm   #123
 
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Originally Posted by bootsyjam View Post
Aha I thought we were on the same page Yep the SB firms have to pay tax (good!) but I'm the son of a bookie so my loyalties are split on the tax issue
I must profess total ignorance to the income tax/CGT issue if trading for a living without a ltd co.
If I trade Eur/USD futures but not as a company, just little old me, I'm aware that I'm liable for CGT, but does income tax come into play? (sorry, it's a bit off topic to the original thread)
The son of a bookie - must have interesting stories to tell

On tax - in theory, if you are trading as part of a business (ie not just holding investments on your own account to benefit from their appreciating value over time as most buy-and-hold investors would do), then gains are treated as trading profits and taxed as income, not capital gains. In practice this is a grey area (what is 'investing' for capital gains, what is trading as a business?) and the taxman is unlikely to get hugely hung up about it unless the sums of money are significant and its very very clear that you are trading as a business - they've never followed me up on it for example. They might take a sterner line going forward now that there is going to be a big spread between CGT rates and higher-rate income tax.
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 6:07pm   #124
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Originally Posted by bootsyjam View Post
Aha I thought we were on the same page Yep the SB firms have to pay tax (good!) but I'm the son of a bookie so my loyalties are split on the tax issue
I must profess total ignorance to the income tax/CGT issue if trading for a living without a ltd co.
If I trade Eur/USD futures but not as a company, just little old me, I'm aware that I'm liable for CGT, but does income tax come into play? (sorry, it's a bit off topic to the original thread)
No.CGT is a capital tax and income tax is, well..income. Like wages, dividends, interest, rent and any other possible income. When a company makes a profit or has income it is all classed as corporate, or corporation tax. A corporation doesn't pay CGT.

Last edited by raysor; Jan 7, 2009 at 6:14pm.
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 10:07pm   #125
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What happens if I place a bet say £10 at 2:1 and then I sell that bet to you at £20. Have I made a capital gain?
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Old Jan 7, 2009, 11:01pm   #126
 
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the original queston was do you have to pay income tax on spread betting profits if your a bum who doesn't have a day job.

the answer is no.

same way i wouldn't have to pay tax if i used my giro to bet on horses and came out in profit for the year
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Old Jan 8, 2009, 11:02am   #127
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I hope someone can answer this question for me as the original point of this thread was to ask about futures betting and their service.
I'm looking to trade the Eur/USD futures contract, lots of good brokers out there but mainly in the US so annoying to open account+change money (sticky fingers syndrome). So I see futures betting is a mimic of the futures market and it's spreadbetting-fantastic! But I'm scuppered by what they offer-it's the USD/EUR, not the EUR/USD-I've looked around but can't find the pair this way round on any charting system so won't be able to trade it?! Got an email from the manager there that stated "We only offer the quote of 1.5160 that so its usd/euro". What? Current futures rate
for EUR/USD is approx 1.3550, so if you flip it round then to the USD/EUR then as I understand it, the rate should be nothing like that, and if it does exist anywhere, can someone tell me where to find the data feed etc?
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Old Jan 8, 2009, 11:31am   #128
 
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Originally Posted by bootsyjam View Post
I hope someone can answer this question for me as the original point of this thread was to ask about futures betting and their service.
I'm looking to trade the Eur/USD futures contract, lots of good brokers out there but mainly in the US so annoying to open account+change money (sticky fingers syndrome). So I see futures betting is a mimic of the futures market and it's spreadbetting-fantastic! But I'm scuppered by what they offer-it's the USD/EUR, not the EUR/USD-I've looked around but can't find the pair this way round on any charting system so won't be able to trade it?! Got an email from the manager there that stated "We only offer the quote of 1.5160 that so its usd/euro". What? Current futures rate
for EUR/USD is approx 1.3550, so if you flip it round then to the USD/EUR then as I understand it, the rate should be nothing like that, and if it does exist anywhere, can someone tell me where to find the data feed etc?

i have just checked the FB paltform and i have a price of 1.3532 on €$.

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Old Jan 8, 2009, 12:06pm   #129
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Hi minime, thanks for the quick reply. This is the message that I received from FB
"We only offer the quote of 1.5160 that so its usd/euro

The spread charge is .8 per side

It is $12.5 per tic movement per 1 lot"

So the lot size shows that it's Eur/USD, not the switched round version that they say they have, and what's that price? Do they not want me to sign up or something?!
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Old Jan 8, 2009, 4:23pm   #130
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Originally Posted by bootsyjam View Post
I hope someone can answer this question for me as the original point of this thread was to ask about futures betting and their service.
I'm looking to trade the Eur/USD futures contract, lots of good brokers out there but mainly in the US so annoying to open account+change money (sticky fingers syndrome). So I see futures betting is a mimic of the futures market and it's spreadbetting-fantastic! But I'm scuppered by what they offer-it's the USD/EUR, not the EUR/USD-I've looked around but can't find the pair this way round on any charting system so won't be able to trade it?! Got an email from the manager there that stated "We only offer the quote of 1.5160 that so its usd/euro". What? Current futures rate
for EUR/USD is approx 1.3550, so if you flip it round then to the USD/EUR then as I understand it, the rate should be nothing like that, and if it does exist anywhere, can someone tell me where to find the data feed etc?
i think you confusing yourself here, they quote E/$

and most charting packages will quote it this way aswell.
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