Why are France and Germany out of recession?

zambuck

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A very interesting article from BBC.

BBC NEWS | Business | Why are France and Germany out of recession?

Successive British Governments have praised the ability of the British economy to respond when times get tough.
They have highlighted its flexibility in handling economic problems.
As a result, many people are wondering why Germany and France emerged from recession before the UK?
Is there a big difference between the economies?
Britain, along with the US, was right at the heart of crisis that led to the global downturn.

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Germany is the world's biggest exporter


Our financial sector is much larger than those of our main EU rivals, so when the credit crunch struck, the impact was much more serious for the UK.
Germany and France have experienced problems in their banking sectors too, but unlike the UK, they have not had to intervene in the sector to the same extent.
There are other differences too.
Germany is the manufacturing heart of Europe. It relies upon exports to fuel growth. So its biggest problem has been the huge fall in global commerce, which the World Trade Organisation predicts will have contracted by 10% this year.
That fall led to a sharp contraction in German growth. In the first 3 months of the year, while Britain's economy shrank by 4.9% on an annualised basis, the contraction in Germany was 6.7%.
From the height of the boom to the depth of the recession, the fall in output in Germany was much greater than in the UK.
But as the global economy has started to recover, German firms have been cranking up production lines and rebuilding stock levels.
They have also been responding to a pick-up in domestic demand, all of which has contributed to growth.
Meanwhile, the financial sector generally is recovering too, but few expect it will ever return to the levels of activity seen prior to the credit crunch, so that will have a lasting impact in the UK.
So was all the money the UK government spent on stabilising the economy wasted?
According to the latest figures from the International Monetary Fund, the UK's discretionary fiscal measures, essentially the cut in VAT, accounted for around 1.6% of total UK economic output this year. It will fall to zero next year as the VAT cut will disappear.

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The German scrappage scheme has been a big boost for its car industry


Germany also provided 1.6% of GDP, but it will add a further 2% next year. The French measures are more modest, amounting to around 0.7% both years.
So the British economy may have enjoyed an early fiscal boost, but it was only on a par with Germany and, unlike France and Germany, that boost will not be continued into 2010.
France and Germany have also benefited from what economists call automatic stabilisers.
Their social security systems are more generous than the UK's and this has provided more support to consumers.
It is one of the reasons why they argued they did not need to follow the UK with headline-grabbing measures to stimulate the economy.
But one area of direct intervention does appear to have helped German growth.
Its car scrappage scheme has been credited with turning around the fortunes of its automotive sector. At 5bn euros ($7.1bn; £4.3bn), it was on an entirely different scale to the UK's £300m scheme.
The UK has spent far more as a proportion of GDP bailing out its banks - an estimated total of more than £1.5tn.
This is greater than not only France and Germany, but all the G20 countries, but then its financial system was arguably in a much deeper hole.
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French and German consumers are not as burdened by debt as UK consumers


The Bank of England governor said this week that there were "encouraging signs" that the various measures were working, but he warned that the depth of the UK recession meant any stable recovery would take some time.
Is there a more fundamental problem in the UK?
Britain was more exposed when the downturn struck, and not just because of its reliance on the financial sector.
UK consumers are more in debt than those in much of mainland Europe.
It is a legacy of a pre-occupation with property ownership and the huge levels of credit, which supported the economy for so long.
It means that while Germany and France are seeing the return of some domestic demand, consumers in the UK will not be able to simply spend their way out of the recession.
So what happens now?
Economists point out that the growth in Germany and France is modest at best, and few would rule out the countries experiencing further quarters of negative growth.
Governments will not be able to prop up their economies for ever, so the stimulus programmes will have to end.
Unemployment is also continuing to rise, so if there is a recovery underway it is still a fragile one.
But if the French and German recoveries gather pace, that would be good news for the UK, because they remain some of its most important trading partners.
Nonetheless, the speed with which France and Germany have emerged from this recession is likely to reignite the debate about just how robust and flexible the UK economy has turned out to be.
 
Another good article from BBC.....

BBC NEWS | Business | France and Germany exit recession

France and Germany exit recession

Consumer spending has risen in both France and Germany
The French and German economies both grew by 0.3% between April and June, bringing to an end year-long recessions in Europe's largest economies.

Stronger exports and consumer spending, as well as government stimulus packages, contributed to the growth.

The data came as a surprise, with few analysts expecting Germany and France to start to recover so soon.

But economic activity in the eurozone fell by 0.1%, showing the region as a whole is still in recession.

It was the fifth consecutive quarter of economic contraction in the eurozone, but was a marked improvement on the 2.5% drop recorded in the first three months of the year.

UK reaction


ANALYSIS

Hugh Pym, Chief economics correspondent
Germany and France can now say they are technically out of recession, while the UK is still in it.

The UK government's claims that it is a global recession maybe rings a little less true in terms of the mood music from each country over the last couple of days.

We've had the French finance minister hailing the figures as a sign of recovery and more optimistic noises from the US Federal Reserve.

Yet at the same time the governor of the Bank of England has said the recovery in the UK will be slow and protracted.

The key question now is whether, over the next year, the UK is going to be helped by Germany and France or held back by things like household debt and the state of our banking system.

Q&A: Why are France and Germany out of recession and UK is not?

Markets reacted positively to the news, with the main German and French markets up more than 1% at midday before later dropping back slightly.

In London, the FTSE 100 index also rose, with traders anticipating a positive effect on the UK economy, which by contrast shrank by 0.8% in the second quarter.

Asked about why the UK seemed to be lagging behind, Business Secretary Lord Mandelson said: "Different economies will show different patterns of behaviour."

"But the key point is all these economies rely on each other; 55 to 56% of our trade is with the rest of Europe. So when [they are] recovering that is good news for our manufacturers and our exports here."

France and Germany may have been less hard hit than the UK by the global economic slowdown because their financial sectors, which were at the heart of the crisis, account for a smaller proportion of their economies.

Export recovery

Germany was thrown into recession earlier in the year because its exports collapsed.



Peter Mandelson: "The outlook for our own economy is also strengthening"
The latest figures showed German exports had grown at their fastest pace for nearly three years at 7%, with particularly strong growth in demand from rapidly-growing economies such as China.

The country's Federal Statistics Office said that household and government expenditure had also boosted growth.

It added that imports had declined "far more sharply than exports, which had a positive effect on GDP growth".

"These [GDP] figures should encourage us," said Germany's Economy Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg. "They show that the strongest decline in economic performance likely lies behind us."

Reaction among analysts to the signs of Germany's recovery, however, was mixed.

"The recession has ended, and it has ended sooner than we all thought. We expect to see growth of 1% in the third quarter, which is very strong for Germany, and I wouldn't rule out the chance of even better growth," said Andreas Rees at Unicredit.

But there are concerns that the banking system across Europe is still fragile and that the growth is reliant on government stimulus spending that will eventually have to come to an end.

BBC Europe business reporter Mark Sanders said that although the surprise news was highly welcome for those that have been suffering, there were questions about how strong and credible the economic recovery is.

"To draw a medical analogy, we've got the patient waking from a coma and talking to medical staff," he said. "They're not necessarily going to be running any marathons soon."





Consumer spending

In France, economy minister Christine Lagarde said: "The data is very surprising. After four negative quarters France is coming out of the red."

Ms Lagarde said that consumer spending and strong exports had helped to pull France out of recession.


CASE STUDY

Plastics manufacturer Wirthwein Nauen, Germany
Chief executive Ulf Sauerwald says his business is growing. Orders are rising and it is taking on more staff.
"Turnover in the whole group increased from 15 to 20% at the start of the year. We've had major new orders coming in, have developed new products in the car sector and are planning to open a new factory in Spain," he says.

But the workers on the factory floor are not seeing a recovery yet.

"It is tough right now... we don't get paid overtime and don't buy expensive stuff like cars," says employee Christopher Schmidt.

Read your comments

"What we see is that consumption is holding up," she said.

Official figures showed that household consumption rose by 0.4% in the second quarter.

She said government incentive schemes for trading in old cars, together with falling prices, were helping consumers.

Foreign trade contributed 0.9% to the GDP figure - a "very strong impact", said Ms Lagarde.

"[The figures are] a positive surprise, as many people were expecting slightly negative numbers," said Marie Diron at Oxford Economics.

But she warned that growth was "still very fragile".

"Investment is down, we still have surprisingly low stock levels, and growth is boosted by the fact that imports fell sharply," she added.
 
Of course, it also depends on what you define as a recession (or not) - here's one definition: What Is Recession? Economic Recession Definition | RECESSION.ORG

It says" Many professionals and experts around the world believe that a true economic recession can only be confirmed if GDP (Gross Domestic Product) growth is negative for a period of two or more consecutive quarters." - and that has been much trailed by our glorious leader(s) and the media.

So why does a miniscule improvement in one quarter count as being out of recession when it takes two to get in? - can't help thinking there's some politics involved here somewhere :LOL:
 
can't help thinking there's some politics involved here somewhere :LOL:
french and german peoples are better protected by welfare by their governments than is the cash for uk people. they have relatively greater disposable. but this does not mean much. exports are what count and if nobody outside is buying then who yoou goingt o sell to. 0.3% is nothing as as somebody mentioned, one quarter is not enough to make such bold staement. all politics. they also play game with manufacturing. now is cheap time to build inventory. low labor and low materiels costs. zero cost of money and holding costs. makes it look like production is up. it is, but only into warehouses. we llok next quarter and are better informed of this trend or flash in the pan.
 
In my view the key reason why France and Germany are not in the same situation as the UK is that their economy was not based on house price inflation and financial services which is what it was in the UK. They have also been very good at protecting their manufacturing and natural resource industries whilst the UK have allowed theirs to be slaughtered.

That said I do think they will suffer longer term because the demand for their products is declining. I recently heard that the French are planning strike action because of planned cuts in production caused by a huge decline in UK demand for their products. Incredible really that the French now think that by going on strike they can force the UK to buy more of their products :)


Paul
 
In general, it's also true that, due to the rigidities in the labor mkt, European countries' recessions are normally shallower, but longer than US/UK ones. This has been the case historically and, it appears, it might be the case in the current episode.
 
I think there are certainly a few issues here esp with germany.
Germany's labour market, in particular, has not seen anything like the same increase in unemployment. The labour market is far more rigid, there are far more incentives to keep workers on (government incentives i believe to tax credits or something of that ilk) and wait for the return of export demand.

The government in Germany is heavily reliant then on these exports and the question is what will happen next? Previously, their reliance on exports was balanced by the consumer driven growth of countries such as Ireland, Spain and Italy. This balanced out the euro-zone trade account. Recent GDP suggests that the countries that fuelled their growth through consumer demand are facing problems, so what does this mean?

Personally, i think the worst is yet to come for Germany, if exports don't pick up then this will cause major problems in the job market. As has been talked about for a while the key to resuming growth worldwide is a re balancing of the previous trends in trade, this would mean the German consumer being responsible for future growth and also the development of American exports and Chinese consumer demand. Recent GDP growth is good but how far it go without a rebalancing of consumer spending?

I would also add that growth in the service sector is important and that the political system which is bound by uneasy coalitions will make change even harder.
 
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US and UK - The worst Recession of the lot

Europe - Less affected and coming out of Recession

Japan - Still in Doldrums....

China - Rampaging Economy. WIll achieve growth of 7 8 %

India - Rampaging Economy. Will achieve the strongest growth in the world this year - 9 - 10%

The main point to remember, and it has been discussed in this thread, is that all Economies with Manufactring has achieved the strongest growth and has been less affected by the Recession.

Tories started the rout by desimating the Manufactring base by 'creative buying' from abroad....and turned the UK into Burger Selling Economy'

If UK will not acieve this manufactring might and will just stay as a service economy linked strongly with US then the UK economy will wilt like mimosa pudica at a slight touch of bad figures.
 
US and UK - The worst Recession of the lot

Europe - Less affected and coming out of Recession

Japan - Still in Doldrums....

China - Rampaging Economy. WIll achieve growth of 7 8 %

India - Rampaging Economy. Will achieve the strongest growth in the world this year - 9 - 10%

The main point to remember, and it has been discussed in this thread, is that all Economies with Manufactring has achieved the strongest growth and has been less affected by the Recession.

Tories started the rout by desimating the Manufactring base by 'creative buying' from abroad....and turned the UK into Burger Selling Economy'

If UK will not acieve this manufactring might and will just stay as a service economy linked strongly with US then the UK economy will wilt like mimosa pudica at a slight touch of bad figures.

Even today - they support the Airbus industry whilst leaving other manufacturing sectors like motors to fight for them selves. We are into high tech industries but unable to translate these into main stream manufacturing.

I look at the new Mini and it is such an icon car it is everywhere. Germans have purchased a brand image - remodelled and introduced their manufacturing experteese and delivered a fantastic car. I always wonder how everybody else seems to bring such products to a market and we can't.

Lack of engineers and management with vision.

Instead of financing the manufacturing and entreprenuial vision we are rewarding bankers who in the service industry have literally ruined us all. Here we are with the FSA still discussing whether they should curtail guaranteed bonuses.

imo Guaranteed bonus = Salary.

Finally, I think Mervyn King's speel this week was more to do with talking the pound down than anything meaningful. I wonder whether he knew in advance what the German / French announcement on GDP was likely going to be? I remain sceptical that we are far behind. Manufacturing confidence is growing in the UK too and as I suggest he is merely trying to talk the pound down which is heading to test 1.70 soon again.
 
I suggest he is merely trying to talk the pound down which is heading to test 1.70 soon again.

His words will have no influence on where the pound is against other currencies in my view. Any previous attempts to influence the currency markets by the likes of King or the government have failed and in spectacular fashion. The pound has already tested 1.70 and bounced down off it this last week. It may test again but that is by no means certain.

I agree with your comments about out inability to make cars like the BMW mini. In my view this is partly because engineering has always been viewed as a second class profession when compared to finance and law. This is not the case in Germany where it is considered of much greater value. The other issue is to do with the fact that we have anything but a meritocracy for our management. As such most positions are filled with people who are not best suited to manage and in many cases got the position because of who they know. I say this as someone who has an MBA and a Cranfield Fellowship in management and who has seen first hand how doors are opened often to the wrong people based on who they know.

We have a tendency in this country to promote people to the level of incompetence and we do little in the way to train managers in approaches that would bring huge benefits to our businesses as well as the public sector. The sort of things I am talking of is training in the philosophies, tools and techniques of continuous improvement that is applied at CEO level and cascaded down throughout the whole organisation in into every process whether strategic or operational. What we have ended up with is accountants running companies whose main focus is on cutting costs to the detriment of new product development and competently trained workforces.


Paul
 
....A classic cartton I once saw summed up UK business policy.....

.....There were 6 fat men in a small boat, each clutching a large sack of money and it was in a severe storm (recession).....There was a small tiny oarsman at the rear rowing the boat...the boat was rocking heavily and was about to keel over...

Six fat guys told the oarsman 'Sorry you will have to jump or we will all sink....!!
 
....A classic cartton I once saw summed up UK business policy.....

.....There were 6 fat men in a small boat, each clutching a large sack of money and it was in a severe storm (recession).....There was a small tiny oarsman at the rear rowing the boat...the boat was rocking heavily and was about to keel over...

Six fat guys told the oarsman 'Sorry you will have to jump or we will all sink....!!


Too right. This book Cityboy: Beer and Loathing in the Square Mile: Amazon.co.uk: Geraint Anderson: Books nails it on the head.

I recall in one of the companies I used to work for I had to have some young gentleman shadow me round which I later found out was the son of our client who signed a lucrative reinsurance contract.

Happens all the time.

My question would be - doesn't this kind of thing also happen in every other country?

Some serious work needs to be done on strategic industries imo such as benefits of agriculture - manufacturing and the service industries. Basing decision on purely economies of scale and advantage in any factors of production is leading us astray. We have technology and rest of the world has labour and land.

We are now beginning to hear we may have shortages in food production. How long will it take for us to claim back lost industries and agricultural output and at what cost.

However, with the narrowing of the technology gap and fast dissemination of technologies we are losing our edge and ability to compete. Moreover, the period of abnormal profit and barriers to entry with the advent of internet ecommerce whole paradigms of the economic frameworks are changing.

I doubt our ability to earn our way in the future. PE ratios will need to come down in valuing our industries imho. Does not bode well for the future.
 
Atilla.....Thanks for the book reference......Must get that one for autumn break read......
 
US and UK - The worst Recession of the lot

Europe - Less affected and coming out of Recession

Japan - Still in Doldrums....

China - Rampaging Economy. WIll achieve growth of 7 8 %

India - Rampaging Economy. Will achieve the strongest growth in the world this year - 9 - 10%

The main point to remember, and it has been discussed in this thread, is that all Economies with Manufactring has achieved the strongest growth and has been less affected by the Recession.

Tories started the rout by desimating the Manufactring base by 'creative buying' from abroad....and turned the UK into Burger Selling Economy'

If UK will not acieve this manufactring might and will just stay as a service economy linked strongly with US then the UK economy will wilt like mimosa pudica at a slight touch of bad figures.
With all due respect, to me this is a very naive view...

Clearly, it's not just about countries with high manufacturing output as %age of GDP, Japan (21%, higher than Germany) being a prime example.

At the moment manufacturing-heavy economies look heroic simply because of the inventory effects, but you have to remember that they were also hit the hardest during the downturn. So the conclusion that manufacturing is the answer to all UK's problems appears a bit too simplistic and not necessarily true to me.
 
Yep i agree, look how hard Germany was originally hit...ouch. I think there are certain truths however, one being that the UK was vulnerable to problems in the financial industry. Germany was an example of a country that was fundamentally imbalanced towards exporting, US also was imbalanced towards consumer demand...again i would say Germany is not coming out of the recession for the reason mentioned above, and due to what i said previously about the government paying companies to stop laying off almost 2mil people until exports start again (when will that happen then?) and the politics of Germany.

However, example of countries doing well are the tiger economies, consumer demand is booming and all that, an appreciation of the currencies might be welcomed but still there is a high chance of asset bubbles emerging in stock market and property. Although Shanghai has taken a hit recently, there was talk before of people taking loans to invest in the stock market, this has recently been stopped but...still interesting. No one is safe, lol.
 
With all due respect, to me this is a very naive view...

Clearly, it's not just about countries with high manufacturing output as %age of GDP, Japan (21%, higher than Germany) being a prime example.

At the moment manufacturing-heavy economies look heroic simply because of the inventory effects, but you have to remember that they were also hit the hardest during the downturn. So the conclusion that manufacturing is the answer to all UK's problems appears a bit too simplistic and not necessarily true to me.


With great respect I am NOT saying that UK should go full hog to Manufactring etc......What I am saying is that there has to be a balanced view regarding the manufacturing process as part of overall Economy.....That has certainly not been the case....

....Putting it simply...If you take country as representing a household....then in a household these is an Income and Expenditure....But if household remains in an 'Upstairs' mode then that will be detrimental eventually.....You can purchase anything by selling silvers....but it will catch up eventually....

With strong currency, you can buy things cheaply from abroad and give people cheap wares...but this approach will catch up eventually when the Manufacturing' intelligence will cease to exist.

.....Look at the facts.....UK was once a powerhouse economy....My grandfather used to throw away any carpentary tool if it did not say 'Made in Sheffield'....What do you use now..? And what has happened to Sheffild Steel..?....Shellfield steel workers were laid off....and same numbers were 'employed' in far east...!

'Creative' Economy is what had brought this country to it's knees....Multinationals are the ones to watch..They call the shots...Politicians just follow the lead..!

Even MacMillan said that tatcher has sold the Silver to prop up the illusion of wealth by buying cheap produce from abroad, while paying all out of work with North Sea Oil...

And manufactring Economies will be hit, as the 'buyers' are on their knees so they stop buying....It is simple Economics....We live in a world where economies are tied more stronly than 50 years back....

And if you think that UK's problems are simplistic, then i will challenge anyone to say clearly as to what should have been done to prevent this happening again....or what should be done now...

...Let me tell you....No one will give answers...
 
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To me there's a bigger question here...

The assumption were living with for the past couple of decades is that economic specialization goes hand in hand with globalization. The idea being that, in a globalized world, everyone should produce and export the one thing they do best and import the rest (think of industrial revolution on steroids, applied to the whole planet). It was a compelling idea and the big players really bought into the whole global value chain concept, as evidenced by the Chinese surplus and the US deficit.

Now, all of a sudden, things are turning out to be a lot less straightforward and so many ideas that seemed true need to be re-evaluated.

I think that's really what you're arguing, Zambuck. Specifically, that the problem with specialization is that it's the most efficient setup in a specific set of circumstances. If, God forbid, these circumstances change (as they have now, it seems), specialization turns out to be a problem, because it caused neglect of skills/areas that might be advantageous in the new environment. Indeed, I agree with your argument that in an unpredictable world, a well-diversified economy will probably do better.

So, to me, it's really a question of how you expect the world to look going fwd...
 
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