Good reading on U.S criminal justice

There is a certain similarity between Jill Dando's murder and the overturning of the case against Barry George and a book that I am reading by John Grisham.

"The Innocent Man" is Grisham's first non-fiction work and is a fascinating read by anyone interested in America's criminal justice system.

Every page uncovers such a criminally incompetent police, public prosecuting department--even the judge seemed determined to railroad the accused onto death row.

My initial impression on reading it was that it was small wonder that Guantanamo Bay exists.

Then, I thought, thank God that things are run differently in the UK.

How wrong an assumption that is. Barry George was described as "The Local Nutter". Ron Williamson, Ada, Oklahoma, was another one, but he was only one of four completely innocent men sentenced for the murder of two women. Both murders were isolated cases.

This is a story of the ruthless conviction of a mentally unstable character. That he was a social problem with a bad reputation made him easy meat for the police and DA.

Splitlink said:

There is a certain similarity between Jill Dando's murder and the overturning of the case against Barry George and a book that I am reading by John Grisham.

"The Innocent Man" is Grisham's first non-fiction work and is a fascinating read by anyone interested in America's criminal justice system.

Every page uncovers such a criminally incompetent police, public prosecuting department--even the judge seemed determined to railroad the accused onto death row.

My initial impression on reading it was that it was small wonder that Guantanamo Bay exists.

Then, I thought, thank God that things are run differently in the UK.

How wrong an assumption that is. Barry George was described as "The Local Nutter". Ron Williamson, Ada, Oklahoma, was another one, but he was only one of four completely innocent men sentenced for the murder of two women. Both murders were isolated cases.

This is a story of the ruthless conviction of a mentally unstable character. That he was a social problem with a bad reputation made him easy meat for the police and DA.

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Well, the US did inherit a good portion of its criminal justice system from the UK.

The same country, that sentenced juveniles on assault, stealing bread, and far lesser crimes, adults for simple burglary or theft, to van deimens land, or sydney, not even 200 years ago.
Criminal justice, well-perhaps you would do well, to research the origins of the worlds first government sponsored civilian "police force".
Britain, BTW, the merchant class got fed up with the thuggery, brutality and corruption of the "private" security sector, demanded a legislated security force, and got it.

For better or worse. Grisham writes a good book.

I don't think that we should compare today's justice system with that of Britain's 200 years ago. Then, we had no idea of what social justice for working people was.

It's obvious that we have not improved all that much but, surely, the US should be the country teaching us a thing or two?

The Oklahoma State Authorities were ignoring every law in the book.

Reading a book like that, about a man born in 1953, was a revelation to me. It was like reading about conditions in Zimbabwe.

Splitlink said:

I don't think that we should compare today's justice system with that of Britain's 200 years ago. Then, we had no idea of what social justice for working people was.

It's obvious that we have not improved all that much but, surely, the US should be the country teaching us a thing or two?

The Oklahoma State Authorities were ignoring every law in the book.

Reading a book like that, about a man born in 1953, was a revelation to me. It was like reading about conditions in Zimbabwe.

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Well- I beg to differ, i think people had a very good idea of what social justice might have been, but it simply wasnt on offer, period, and up until today, even in "western" countries, the same thing applies, belong to the wrong group, be in the wrong place/time, you will suddenly find such prosecutory zeal as the bastille stormer's had;

adversarial justice is a blood sport, imo, and a blight on humanity.

So, while perhaps not an entirely fair comparison, I think its a valid one-its basically the same system, after all, subtle differences but the same basic methods.

No, times change, just as our outlook on the wastage of finite fossil minerals is changing today and just as your point of view on your Aborigines is changing.

My point is that if the British attitude to punishment was to put a man, convicted for stealing an apple, on the next boat to Australia then, surely, we should have made certain advances in the following 200 years?

After all, in those days, the country was in the firm hands of the aristocracy but, in the last half century the unions and labour parties have changed us all, a lot.

With a free press, a good police force and judicial system, how on earth did a true story like "The Innocent Man" and this man, George Barry, who did eight years in prison, come to pass?

Splitlink said:

No, times change, just as our outlook on the wastage of finite fossil minerals is changing today and just as your point of view on your Aborigines is changing.

My point is that if the British attitude to punishment was to put a man, convicted for stealing an apple, on the next boat to Australia then, surely, we should have made certain advances in the following 200 years?

After all, in those days, the country was in the firm hands of the aristocracy but, in the last half century the unions and labour parties have changed us all, a lot.

With a free press, a good police force and judicial system, how on earth did a true story like "The Innocent Man" and this man, George Barry, who did eight years in prison, come to pass?

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Sure, its good theory, and in practice you are mostly correct-the idea we "should" have progressed. Its simply my view, that we have-in terms of punishment, the sharp end of the stick. Because they ran out of places to deport people to, simple expedience.

But "my view " on aborigines? What, because im an aussie, i should have a "view" on aboriginal welfare, despite having zero say in any such matter? Like an englishmen talking about scottish, or irish welfare, such as it was, or is, let alone in antiquity.
Crikey, PC forum.

Check your last paragraph for errors, is my advice-these things happen all the time, still, not just in the states, but everywhere.

Just in australia, in the 90's, were two sad and sorry cases;(no doubt dozens, hundreds more)
One, a man who was blatantly framed up, served 8 or so years, before an investigative journalist looked at the situation, dug up relevant facts and, with the (bizarre) assistance of a former police union defender, was eventually set free.
No charges, no fault, against the framees.......nada. They knew he didnt do it, withheld evidence etc.

Another, a woman framed up for murder, in NSW, served a similiar amount of time-the person who effectively put her away, was the cop who most certainly did the deed, hearsay of course.
No investigation, no inquiry, nada. She was innocent, yet, despite evidence, nobody else was charged, much less found guilty. No compensation, no NOTHING.
Never happened.



I'm simply saying to you, if you beleive a damn word these crooks say to you, via the media, via court transcripts, whatever, run for your life.

They are, actually, that bad.

For some equally good reading, i strongly recommend any of Geoffrey Robertson's books, lawyer extraordinaire, penultimate humanist, and basically the best damn person on the planet, at the moment.

I know that you are right, of course. It does happen all the time and we have the nerve to criticise the Chinese for their human rights record.

Mine, as well as yours, is just a protest, along with Grisham and others, against the system.

Take care and keep out of trouble.

Split

Splitlink said:

I know that you are right, of course. It does happen all the time and we have the nerve to criticise the Chinese for their human rights record.

Mine, as well as yours, is just a protest, along with Grisham and others, against the system.

Take care and keep out of trouble.

Split

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Well, in years to come, i have no doubt the horror stories to come out of china would dwarf most English /western supposed "dissent". Not talking idiotic soccer violence, either.
Those poor *******s have it rough.
Fact is, their about the same-you only know what you know, just they have more people, = more dissent. Poor *******s.

I wont be boycotting the beijing games, chinese culture deserves more than that, but its ridiculous to think they should have actually got the games to begin with.

They are the penultimate cheats, ruthless in their athletic selection, the successors of east germany and their quasi soviet past.
Maybe its just me, but i don't care if china wins in long jump, track and field, but lets face it they need medals, big time.

=doping like you wouldn't believe.

Well, i guess, i kinda distracted the thread from its original intent.
Or, did i?

Well, part of my time in Spain was spent living under Franco and I didn't find the regime too bad because I was a British subject and couldn't do much wrong, unless I stood up in Plaza Cataluña and shouted "Down with Franco and his yobs!" I didn't do anything like that, of course, and kept away from politics altogether, the same as millions of Spaniards did.

That, however, is what millions of Chinese do, just keep their heads down and start enjoying a life that they certainly didn't have before Mao came along. Now that he, who was a real hardliner, is gone, as well, things are getting steadily better there.

Nothing can be changed overnight but, we, in the west, have had a lot of time. It all comes down to human greed and ambition. It follows that those who get to the top of their ladders are a hard bunch, capable of screwing anyone who gets in their way.

I've noticed the tendency, both in Spain and UK, to ship unwanted politicians, not to Australia (they'd like to, but the Aussis wouldn't have them), but to Brussels. God help the EU.

Barry George is only one in a long line of local nutters, oddballs whatever, who have been chosen by the police for prosecution.

There is a long history of this kind of thing going on in the police force and it is a device they use to mask their own total incompetence, whilst at the same time praising themselves for their total professionalism.

The Police Force does not attract the really top calibre people in large numbers....after all, anyone with half a brain does not want to be shot at, knifed, spat on etc etc.

It is therefore not surprising that the mediocre individuals that end up in senior positions in the Police Force probably cannot even spell Sherlock Holmes, let alone emulate him.

They usually rely on a lucky break, forced confessions or picking on the local nutter to keep their record of solving crimes up to speed.

I have never been a fan of the Police Force, I certainly do not trust them one iota, too many of them are Fascist wannabees and I would not cross the road to help the b*****ds.

And I certainly wouldn't p**s on one of them to put them out if they were on fire.

Rant over.

My sister went out with a couple of them, when I was a youngster. I never, really, took to them and am glad that none became members of the family.

They are different. :whistling

One of my neighbours is a retired one and he is very different.

Welsh too !

I pretend he doesn't exist.

Hmm. Well, i once pulled over at a car crash, someone had run off the road. Looked nasty, but only minor injuries, 1xbroken arm etc, bruises, scrapes.
Naturally, i offered the guy a shot of JD from my hip flask, knowing full well a shot of brown elixer was, prior to pc correctness and drunk driving laws/insurance policies, the polite thing to do, and i can gurantee, a quick slug of whiskey will be very likely to assist in the immediate effects of trauma. It works!!!did in cowboy movies, anyway.
Naturally, he was an off duty cop, and bizarrely, before checking his wife and kids were ok, or accepting physical assistance to move them/him away from the car (precautionary measure) he took the time to give me a dressing down, and threatened to have me arrested, broken arm and all.
Go figure.

Yes they are different aren't they.

Severely intellectually challenged too.........hence the inability to solve crime and the need for a local nutter selection process.

Since corruption is often rife within such organisations ( if you can call the PF that ) one should question whether the local nutter selection process was put in place donkeys years ago in order to cover up the possible involvement of the PF in the crimes themselves.

After all they seem to enjoy real life target practice don't they...remember Jean Charles De Menezes.

Jill Dando ?????????????????

yacarob1 said:

Yes they are different aren't they.

Severely intellectually challenged too.........hence the inability to solve crime and the need for a local nutter selection process.

Since corruption is often rife within such organisations ( if you can call the PF that ) one should question whether the local nutter selection process was put in place donkeys years ago in order to cover up the possible involvement of the PF in the crimes themselves.

After all they seem to enjoy real life target practice don't they...remember Jean Charles De Menezes.

Jill Dando ?????????????????

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2485250/Barry-George-cleared-of-murdering-Jill-Dando.html

Splitlink

The question marks after Jill Dando were not to ask who she was, but rather to question whether you know who might have been involved in the crime.

I live in Spain. How am I going to have any idea? Barry might have done it, for all I know, but it was not proven and he spent eight years in gaol because the police drummed up a case on lack of real evidence.

My point is that, if I get arrested fo something that I did not do, only false evidence and speculation should put me away for it. What happened to Barry could happen to any of us and there aren't very many who would be all that interested. That is what the police and prosecution rely on. That most of the public believes that our institutions are looking after the individual's interests. Are they, hell!

You should be even more worried in Spain as the cops are even less fussy and competent there.

And Portugal.

Look at poor old Murat ( mind you he did get £ 600 K out of it ) and the Mcanns.

They were not even the local nutters but they got accused all the same.

"The colonel's lady and Judy O'Grady are sisters under their skin"

"Birds of a feather flock together"

Etc etc.

A Kipling man eh, like it.