Asking for systems...

Right... just something thats really pees me off...

I absolutely hate it when i get a PM from someone asking if i can send them my system to use I mean, people are more then welcomed to PM asking what style i trade etc, what time frames i find usefull, what indicators suit my style or what my opinion is on something (you shouldn't really listen to me anyway lol), but to just send a PM saying

"Hey,
i'm not making money, you seem to be, can you send me your system to use?'


To me that is complete cheek and ignorance. Why should someone put the hardwork in developing something that works for them, only to hand it over to someone on a silver plate, with step by step idiot proof guide to someone who hasn't put the hours in, or hasn't taken to time to study to the tools available to them that suit their needs.

It's like someone going to uni, getting someone to do their exams for them, then calling themselves an economist afterwards.... I really hate people who want something for nothing and are not willing to work for it...

Kev.

Don't give your maserati to a learner driver

Kevin21 said:

Right... just something thats really pees me off...

I absolutely hate it when i get a PM from someone asking if i can send them my system to use I mean, people are more then welcomed to PM asking what style i trade etc, what time frames i find usefull, what indicators suit my style or what my opinion is on something (you shouldn't really listen to me anyway lol), but to just send a PM saying

"Hey,
i'm not making money, you seem to be, can you send me your system to use?'


To me that is complete cheek and ignorance. Why should someone put the hardwork in developing something that works for them, only to hand it over to someone on a silver plate, with step by step idiot proof guide to someone who hasn't put the hours in, or hasn't taken to time to study to the tools available to them that suit their needs.

It's like someone going to uni, getting someone to do their exams for them, then calling themselves an economist afterwards.... I really hate people who want something for nothing and are not willing to work for it...

Kev.

Click to expand...

Kev

I'm sure that you sent them off with a flea in their ear. Mind you it makes a change from receiving PMs trying to sell you a system.

The point these people asking for your system do not realise is that it wouldn't do them much good even if you gave it to them. This is not a criticism of your system, but a criticism of their ability to use it. It's not much good giving a maserati when they have L plates !

Charlton

So, let me just check that I understand.

Are you saying that you won't give me your system?

Well that's my day ruined. I would love to know what MA settings a great trader like Kev uses.

I agree totally with Charlton.
just being given settings is just a small part of the whole trading process.
unless you are part of the development process, and understand WHY the settings are what they are, you cannot feel confident about them.
and you cannot put across the subtleties of the system; many aspects are understood "osmotically" and not written down, because things become apparent through experience and screen-watching, and difficult to write down.

and also the drawdown and win/loss aspects are more psychological than mathematical.

anyway, options and nkruger have explored a very good Stochs set-up for DAX and Idex.
why cant they use that as a basis for their own?
(I have totally ignored the settings, as its the divergence aspect has been the eye-opener for me)

Kev; its up to you, but you would be better off pointing them to other T2W threads politely; cos you know you will get badgered for help forever after!

funny, i would never ask for a method. i cant use indicators, just cant.

anyway, i guess i second you trendie, indicators or not, the personal discipline is what makes a method work IMO.

Also i don't think anyone here is really using something completelty out of the blue. In my opinion people with the same styles are using simlar set ups, just with a few differences to suit them personally.

For me personally, i've tried all sorts of stuff and many different systems. I've taken bits away from most things i've tried that i really liked and put them all together in a box together and thought 'out of all of this, what can i make of it?' Everyday i tend to learn something new that makes me go back and evaluate whatever it is i'm working on. For example i sent a couple of people that i've spoken to before (steve, dino's etc) my system for their opinion. That was about a week ago and since then i've learnt even more stuff, and as a result my system is even more refined.

When it someone like LL goes 'i can't define a trend and i have no discipline' then 2mins later sends me a PM asking for my system, it slightly annoys me to say the least...

Kev

"Hey,
i'm not making money, you seem to be, can you send me your system to use?'

Click to expand...

This is because most people are lazy and want something for nothing. You see it in all walks of life from the T-Shirt and Sunglasses stalls at markets to the Get Rich Quick with this infallible system peddlers.

Unfortunately it will never go away.


Paul

Bit harsh on us street market folk Paul... At least T-shirt and sunglasses peddlers are providing some sort of service to humanity.

As traders, we also provide a service of course, but this is one of mopping up excess expectation and synergising others’ under-utilised intelligence - for a fee. And it has little to do with humanity.

On the topic of this thread however, I’ve never understood why anyone would be that fussed about sharing their experiences, approaches or systems and methods. Fair enough, you’re not going to give away the Golden Goose, but then again, there is no Golden Goose to give away. If there were, you wouldn’t be here. We’re here, those of us that still are of course, because we feel there’s still something to learn and much to share with others. Quid pro quo.

I find it amazing that anyone would PM Kev or anyone else with such a bald request, and especially as Kev indicates this was not a one-off. Quite stunned. But Kev if it happens again, charge them $500 for your X-SMA system (invent one if you haven’t already got one) and donate all proceeds to the t2w one-born-every-minute fund to avoid vendor allegations.

Hi Tony,

Street markets are fine and I was referring to how these markets start off well and then decline because of people who want to get money for very little effort. For those who may be interested there was a good article about how eBay may see a major decline because of exactly the same thing. Here is the link:

http://theauctionrebel.com/419/the-future-of-ebay-bright-or-cloudy



Paul

kevin

i can understand your frustrations at people asking for your systems, as i can see how it can be a bit cheeky!

I can also understand why people might ask. You have mentioned on numerous occasions on T2W, your incredible daily average profits of 500+ points. Therefore, a member may think there'll be enough profit to go round, and that they have nothing to lose by asking - the worst that can happen is you say - no, and clear off!

It is good that you have now publicly stated that this is annoying to you, therefore the hopeful PM's may drop off a bit!

Free systems?

I've been subject to some PM's too a while ago, but personally, I don't mind really. Most of them I've redirected to other parts from T2W or told that I would offer direct advice to a direct question. Or I suggested to help them through opening a journal. In the past I've had several members offer the same generosity to me, so I don't see why I wouldn't share some of the things I've had to learn too. Charlton makes a good point there "It's not much good giving a maserati when they have L plates!"

I agree with what trendie is saying, it's better to answer them politely than to react otherwise. It doesn't really matter whether you give people food with the golden spoon or not, because there is none. And even if there was one, they probably wouldn't realize they had been given it.

For instance, over a month ago I have posted "a system" here claiming it was something I just came up with:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showpost.php?p=345885&postcount=260

Regardless of my comments at the time, I was interesting to see what people would do with it. Apparently not much. Apart from some PM's nobody is willing to do the work let alone test it and go through the different parameters of a system to finetune it to their own needs.

What people don't realize is that my post is actually 75% of what my system is based upon. Next to that I have been putting on live trades in the DOW 2007 thread during the last couple of months (with the exception of August whilst I had other preoccupations) as an illustration of the system to show that is in effect profitable.

Anybody who wants a system for free, he's got one there. And there are plenty others around here that have offered free advice, free example trades and lots of free education. I am leaving out a lot of people (sorry) but Dinos is the first person that I can think of.

Not only are the pieces of the puzzle lying on the table, most of the pieces are already put in place. So I can understand why some people get aggravated when they get PM's enquiring about their system.

As for Kevin's comments about LL... I offered him a great deal of help and loads of advice and it disappoints me really to see him walking down this road once again.

Not that any of this amazes me frankly... I have yet to see anybody put in the necessary screen time & testing time until their eyes bleed.

"There's no such thing as a free lunch"...

I personally love the "what's the secret" questions I get (or variations thereof). Just got another one yesterday, in fact.

The secret apparently is that you can't become an expert trader overnight.

Rhody Trader said:

I personally love the "what's the secret" questions I get (or variations thereof). Just got another one yesterday, in fact.

The secret apparently is that you can't become an expert trader overnight.

Click to expand...

Two misconceptions kept me from progressing when I first started out.
Douglas described them best of all:

(1) "You don't need to know what's going to happen next, in order to make money"; I kept trying to figure out why the market is doing this or that. Until I gave up the need for understanding, I actually gained understanding.

(2) "Each moment in the market is unique"; I kept comparing different market situations where a lot of parameters are the same but the market nevertheless reacted differently. I kept filtering my system until it showed the right signal in each of these situations. Obviously this only lasted until another new unexplored situation arose and I had no answer for it. The sooner you realize you can't be right every time, the easier it becomes.

Rhody Trader said:

I personally love the "what's the secret" questions I get (or variations thereof). Just got another one yesterday, in fact.

The secret apparently is that you can't become an expert trader overnight.

Click to expand...

Of course you can! It only took me 10 years plus.

I have lost count of the times when I had a really good system that was making me money, only to share it with a few others, and lo and behold 'my' system stopped working for me.

Why?

No reason at all. It just stopped working.

I have had this happen around 6 or 7 times now, and have had to go back a few steps and come up with something different that then works for me.

It's a good thing as far as I am concerned because it has only made my methodologies stronger and more workable.

But do you know what?

The first one I shared, still works to this day. So does the second and etc, etc.

Again, why?

Because they were/are solid methodologies and systems. The BASICS were and ARE still sound.

So what changes?

You do.

That simple.

I know I have grown over the years as a trader and as a person. The two do not go together.

The market stays the same, albeit with 'seasonal' differences and difficulties. Because of advances in technologies it is presented in a different way. There are more active participants these days than ever before.

BUT. I will predict that there will be fewer and fewer people that actually make it as pursuing a successful trading career.

Why?

Because they do not want and will not put up with the salary of an apprentice. They will not put in the hours. They want it served up on a plate. They are the children of the microwave era. They want it NOW!

They might get lucky a few times, but how often on these boards do you hear of people asking if anyone has heard of so and so. (Guru, newsletter, email alert, etc).

It appears nothing ever changes. Only the way it is presented.

This is why people change the 'look' of their 'shop front' (Cast the net...New season of fishes). Get more mugs to the 'game'.

There are 'set' ways to do things.

If you get a 'paper round' There is a 'set' way to do it. If you train as a 'printer' there are certain things you do in a set order. If you train as a 'solicitor'. You do things a set way.
If you become prime minister of England. You do things a set way.

What stands you apart from your siblings that are doing the exact same thing as you is your 'input'. Your outlook on the 'problem'.

YOUR DIFFERENT APPROACH THAT ONLY BELONGS TO YOU.

You can't trade the same way as I do. It wouldn't suit your personality 'make up'. You can't trade the same way as 'Buffet' or even the guy that broke 'Barrings'

Hey, hold on. If your 'view' was 100% opposite of Nicks... How much money could you have made?

Do you follow what I am trying to say?

firewalker99 said:

Two misconceptions kept me from progressing when I first started out.
Douglas described them best of all:

(1) "You don't need to know what's going to happen next, in order to make money"; I kept trying to figure out why the market is doing this or that. Until I gave up the need for understanding, I actually gained understanding.

(2) "Each moment in the market is unique"; I kept comparing different market situations where a lot of parameters are the same but the market nevertheless reacted differently. I kept filtering my system until it showed the right signal in each of these situations. Obviously this only lasted until another new unexplored situation arose and I had no answer for it. The sooner you realize you can't be right every time, the easier it becomes.

Click to expand...

True so true... i spent a lot of time doing both of them...

Also about the 500pts+ daily. What annoys me when people ask about it, is that they don't seem to grasp the concept that most of them 500pts come from an index at around 40,000pts. It's as if they think i've taken 500pts today out of the ftse alone, or just the dow...

Kevin21 said:

True so true... i spent a lot of time doing both of them...

Also about the 500pts+ daily. What annoys me when people ask about it, is that they don't seem to grasp the concept that most of them 500pts come from an index at around 40,000pts. It's as if they think i've taken 500pts today out of the ftse alone, or just the dow...

Click to expand...

I understand. The 500 pppd sounds relative to the market, and this is reflected in the volatility, and likely size of stop-loss used - a bit like when trading exotic currency pairs.

eg. 1000 pips profit on USD ZAR, needing maybe a 300 pip SL
Is maybe = to 100 pips profit on GBPUSD with a 30 pip SL.

You would not be trading the same £ per point value on USDZAR as you would be on GBPUSD, while risking the same amouunt of capital per trade, but bottom line profits would be more or less equal.

JTrader said:

I understand. The 500 pppd sounds relative to the market, and this is reflected in the volatility, and likely size of stop-loss used - a bit like when trading exotic currency pairs.

eg. 1000 pips profit on USD ZAR, needing maybe a 300 pip SL
Is maybe = to 100 pips profit on GBPUSD with a 30 pip SL.

You would not be trading the same £ per point value on USDZAR as you would be on GBPUSD, while risking the same amouunt of capital per trade, but bottom line profits would be more or less equal.

Click to expand...

One spmib mini contract is worth 1 euro, which is like 60p. So to make 100 quid with 1 contract you nred 166.6pts

One contract on the mini YM is is about 2.50. To make 100 quid with contract you need to make 40pts...