Best Prime Minister of modern times?

This is a discussion on Best Prime Minister of modern times? within the The Foyer forums, part of the Off the Grid category; Originally Posted by Mr. Charts Well said. Youth knows everything, except experience. Youth knows enthusiasm without judgement. In practical terms, ...

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Old Oct 5, 2017, 4:36pm   #31
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Originally Posted by Mr. Charts View Post
Well said.

Youth knows everything, except experience.
Youth knows enthusiasm without judgement.

In practical terms, the youth vote only comes out when they see someone who might change something. They don't vote in number for the status quo: they've got nothing (as they see it) so what have they got to lose?
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Old Oct 5, 2017, 4:58pm   #32
 
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Originally Posted by Mr. Charts View Post
Aha ! So who put the trick in trickle ?
The wicked capitalists?

The self righteousness and "intellectual" arrogance of the left who always know better than the masses they purport to represent continues to beggar belief.
Given the wage stagnation over the past several decades, the trick would appear to be self-evident.

The self-righteousness and "intellectual" arrogance of the right who always know better than the masses they purport to represent also continues to beggar belief.
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Old Oct 5, 2017, 5:22pm   #33
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The self-righteousness and "intellectual" arrogance of the right who always know better than the masses they purport to represent also continues to beggar belief.

So equally applicable to the left its become a cliche that the left repeat and repeat. At least as far as the British socialist movement is concerned. As you'll appreciate, this is inherently a deal further left than the US left and has a strong class element.
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Old Oct 5, 2017, 5:23pm   #34
 
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Like most people my own politics are a mixture of left and right attitudes.
People who adhere scrupulously to one political concept are extreme and partially blinded and usually intolerant of others as a result. Therein lies the danger, left or right. The majority of people are not extreme, fortunately, at least not in this country
Sometimes there are very good arguments on both sides in politics, but give me the middle ground most of the time.
Let's hope a middle ground in found in Catalonia very soon before positions harden even more.
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Old Oct 5, 2017, 6:12pm   #35
 
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So equally applicable to the left its become a cliche that the left repeat and repeat. At least as far as the British socialist movement is concerned. As you'll appreciate, this is inherently a deal further left than the US left and has a strong class element.
Not surprising, given how the working class has been treated over the past two hundred years or so.

Not that any of this has anything to do with the "best PM" in modern times.
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Old Oct 5, 2017, 8:10pm   #36
 
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Originally Posted by dbphoenix View Post
Not surprising, given how the working class has been treated over the past two hundred years or so.

Not that any of this has anything to do with the "best PM" in modern times.
Having come from a very poor "working class" background myself, I assure you the so called working class in the UK is not a lumpen proletariat exploited by evil capitalist bosses egged on by monstrous and rapacious Tories.
Obviously some corporations screw people wherever possible, but in my personal experience not to the same extent as in the U.S.

Since Labour has been in power for long stretches in the 20th and 21st centuries the interests of the "working classes" have not been greatly neglected anyway.
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Old Oct 5, 2017, 8:22pm   #37
 
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However, you're talking about less than one lifetime and personal experience. I'm looking at a considerably greater context.

Ingrained notions of white supremacy and class supremacy do not simply "flip"; they linger on, year after year, decade after decade, century after century. Whether a party labeled "Labour" has been in power or not is not necessarily pertinent.
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Old Oct 6, 2017, 1:29pm   #38
 
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Originally Posted by tomorton View Post
Who was the last competent PM (or Minister even) we've had in the UK?

I actually found some survey results on Wiki on this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...United_Kingdom

The most recent survey was October 2016, involving 82 academics specialising in post-1945 British history and politics. Seems they had to all the 20th-century British PM's in terms of their success and the key characteristics of successful PMs.

They put Attlee at the top. Well, OK, he headed the implementation of the NHS. But then there's Thatcher, then Blair! While even the useless Gordon Brown gets in ahead of Cameron!

1 Clement Attlee 1945–1951 Labour
2 Margaret Thatcher 1979–1990 Conservative
3 Tony Blair 1997–2007 Labour
4 Harold Macmillan 1957–1963 Conservative
5 Harold Wilson 1964–1970, 1974–1976 Labour
6 John Major 1990–1997 Conservative
7 Sir Winston Churchill (1940–1945), 1951–1955 Conservative
8 James Callaghan 1976–1979 Labour
9 Edward Heath 1970–1974 Conservative
10 Gordon Brown 2007–2010 Labour
11 David Cameron 2010–2016 Conservative
12 Sir Alec Douglas-Home 1963–1964 Conservative
13 Sir Anthony Eden 1955–1957 Conservative

What a bunch!
I'll confess that I'm not anywhere near the required level of knowledge on this subject to answer the question on a deeply intellectual level, so everything I say is mostly off the top of my head and for entertainment purposes only.

New Labour was not a Labour gov..

Also , they were all 'competant' because all the ideas and work to carry them out was/ is done by others. Eg Thatcherim wasn't Thatcher's idea.


1 Clement Attlee 1945–1951 Labour

Probably no1 for NHS

2 Margaret Thatcher 1979–1990 Conservative

Good if you enjoy being forced into becoming a conservative by having your industry destroyed, your unions smashed, and your council house sold off to the private sector while being loudly hectored by a man in drag.

3 Tony Blair 1997–2007 Labour

Started out like a pre runner to Obama (real change) The machine quickly turned him into a lying war criminal who refuses to murder himself and give us all a break.

Stiched up Gordon Brown and thought he could make up for it by buying him an ice cream with someone else's money.

What is not to like about a man who wants you to carry an ID card? Who amongst us would not want to be thrown in a police cell and held for 3 weeks without charge for being a member of Green Peace.?

Who wouldn't enjoy snooping in people's rubbish bins and reporting them to the local council for not correctly recycling their refuse?

Who wouldn't want to be frog marched to a cash point to pay a litter fine?

What's not to like about a man who allows UK citizens to be flown out of the country in the dead of night to be tortured by the Americans and then claims to know nothing about it?

A real charmer.


4 Harold Macmillan 1957–1963 Conservative

'You've never had it so good. Coming from a Conservative that sounds like an indictment rather than a recommendation. I guess if you're prepared to exchange an outside toilet for modern day slavery you should be pretty content.

5 Harold Wilson 1964–1970, 1974–1976 Labour

'What crisis'? The man who killed off the pipe smoking industry forever.

Just demonstrates that public service is often found in the most unusual places.

Apart from that, my instinct is that he was a chiselling little crook who was probably wearing stockings and suspenders underneath the Saville Row suit

6 John Major 1990–1997 Conservative

Spitting image- 'These peas are nice dear' sums him up nicely.


The fact that he resorted to calling opponents in his own party 'B******s' shows you how weak he was.(They should have been calling him a B****** if he was a strong leader)

He really should have been a civil servant... or a gas meter inspector.

7 Sir Winston Churchill (1940–1945), 1951–1955 Conservative

Just a movie star really. And only because there was a war. Otherwise just another Tory. Great presence,voice and speech writing.

The kind of person you feel guilty about admiring, bearing in mind the acts of pure evil it was 'necessary' for him to carry out.


8 James Callaghan 1976–1979 Labour

A complete pedestrian masquerading as a school crossing supervisor.

9 Edward Heath 1970–1974 Conservative

'Something of the night' (To quote Ann W. talking about Michael Howard) about this guy. Or- a murdering satanic pedophile. Take your pick.

Did he sell this country to the EU knowing what it would become? During the referendum debates Leon Britton said The Eu was designed to be what it is right from the start.

I absolutely don't believe Leon was a pedophile who lied about the dossier that the home office lost and conveniently murdered himself.

I feel sure he is, even as I type this,
sitting in heaven having tea with Lord Janner. Another guy who was not a pedophile and did not get dementia just when he needed it and did not also murder himself right on cue.

These allegations tre false and merely prove that politics is NOT riddled with pedophiles and covered up by others. These ideas are for conspiracy theorists.

People with integrity fall off cliffs all the time. People with integrity committ suicide in circumstances that are the opposite to the claimed facts all the time.

People who predict their deaths and are then found dead in those exact same circumstances are liars.

Just because the official story concerning these and many other stories just like them are riddled with inconsistencies, blatant lies and demonstrable misdirection does not expose the establishment as a corrupt self serving criminal organisation.

Heath was also a fantastic sailor and a great musician.


10 Gordon Brown 2007–2010 Labour

'British jobs for British workers' Where? When? 'An end to Tory boom and bust' ...

How did that work out?

Ju
st like Tony Blair before him. the unelected Gordon Brown put his faith in spin doctors, believing a bunch of words were better than actually creating policies.

He then formed part of the bully boy black mail team to keep Scotland shackled to the UK.

A disgrace to the scottish accent


11 David Cameron 2010–2016 Conservative


Non entity. Would fit nicely in......a filing cabinet.

12 Sir Alec Douglas-Home 1963–1964 Conservative

Fantastic man of the people sounding name. Gave it a year , then probably went back to doing whatever Old Eatonian /oxbridge self entitled ***** do with their time.

13 Sir Anthony Eden 1955–1957 Conservative

Didn't he just spend most of his time in black and white, giving speeches on TV?

I think he just delegated everything and spent most of his time drinking in the club.

Probably the sane club as Lord Lucan

In fact, I have just decided right now.

I'm going to start a you tube channel based on the conspiracy theory that Eden was the guy that actually murdered the nanny and that she was the intended victim all along.

Who wants to read that story? Who wants to take a bet on how many subscribers I get?

Farage is the only politician I have voted for in my life, and it actually worked!!

I really shouldn't be so cynical... on the other hand....


Last edited by David Knight; Oct 6, 2017 at 1:48pm.
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Old Oct 6, 2017, 4:57pm   #39
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tomorton started this thread Fantastic summary David. I just hadn't got round to it but think it wouldn't have been much different. Maybe not so much fun to read.

I would have given some plus marks for Thatcher and Churchill but can't think of any outstanding achievements by the others.
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Old Oct 6, 2017, 7:04pm   #40
 
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At least they were all moderates.
However people may be getting tired of moderation and opt for the next wacko who stands for election.
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Old Oct 6, 2017, 8:37pm   #41
 
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Originally Posted by tomorton View Post
Fantastic summary David. I just hadn't got round to it but think it wouldn't have been much different. Maybe not so much fun to read.

I would have given some plus marks for Thatcher and Churchill but can't think of any outstanding achievements by the others.
The American list would be good...
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Old Oct 7, 2017, 1:39pm   #43
 
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Fortescue worked as a whip in Edward Heath’s Tory government between 1970 and 1973



“For anyone with any sense, who was in trouble, would come to the whips and tell them the truth, and say now, I’m in a jam, can you help? It might be debt, it might be… a scandal involving small boys, or any kind of scandal in which, erm er, a member seemed likely to be mixed up in, they’d come and ask if we could help and if we could, we did. And we would do everything we can because we would store up brownie points… and if I mean, that sounds a pretty, pretty nasty reason, but it’s one of the reasons because if we could get a chap out of trouble then, he will do as we ask forever more. ”

Can you count how many laws were broken there?
What completely befuddles me is that he seems to be more embarrassed about blackmailing than pedophilia.
Thanks I have seen that before.

I really think that to see the world as it really is one needs to stop measuring these people in terms of what we would/could do.


The key, I think, is to see the repeating pattern. A trading forum is a good place to discuss such things. We have a collection of people who are open to seeing patterns. Though it is a human trait in general.

What is the repeating pattern regarding pedophilia in the political establishment?

Denial
Cover Up
Attacks on the accuser/messenger
Intimidation
Enquiries that go nowhere, controlled by the establishment itself.
Mis direction- Look we're doing something- see how many/how fast minor celebs were sent to prison.

What's missing? Apart from a bunch words, no real outrage. No action- None. Tells you a lot.

Where's the 'war' on pedophilia? There's a war on everything else- including free speech and privacy. I think we can see where the priorities of the establishment lie.

Let's just keep in mind the biggest smoking gun and proof how big this really is:

Jimmy Saville.

If that story isn't enough proof, there's really nothing to talk about.

Last edited by David Knight; Oct 7, 2017 at 1:53pm. Reason: spelling
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Old Oct 7, 2017, 2:13pm   #44
 
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Originally Posted by David Knight View Post
Thanks I have seen that before.

I really think that to see the world as it really is one needs to stop measuring these people in terms of what we would/could do.


The key, I think, is to see the repeating pattern. A trading forum is a good place to discuss such things. We have a collection of people who are open to seeing patterns. Though it is a human trait in general.

What is the repeating pattern regarding pedophilia in the political establishment?

Denial
Cover Up
Attacks on the accuser/messenger
Intimidation
Enquiries that go nowhere, controlled by the establishment itself.
Mis direction- Look we're doing something- see how many/how fast minor celebs were sent to prison.

What's missing? Apart from a bunch words, no real outrage. No action- None. Tells you a lot.

Where's the 'war' on pedophilia? There's a war on everything else- including free speech and privacy. I think we can see where the priorities of the establishment lie.

Let's just keep in mind the biggest smoking gun and proof how big this really is:

Jimmy Saville.

If that story isn't enough proof, there's really nothing to talk about.
Paedophilia is unfortunately just like many other "problems" that are inherent in human society. If the problem is big enough and difficult enough then "authority" is always reluctant/slow/incompetent at dealing with it – and that's just another facet of human nature where we all like to deal with the easy problems and leave the difficult ones on one side. Isn't that why we find it difficult to get rid of a failed trade, spend a lot of our energy on the entry – which is "fun" and the reckoning doesn't come until later (just like using your credit card?).

Isn't that why great politicians are as rare as great people: they are the ones that see what needs to be done and make it their business to do it. In the current context I see Prime Minister May as someone who likes being PM but doesn't have much clue as to what needs doing and even less as to how to do it. Contrast this with Thatcher: whether or not you agree her politics, she at least knew what she wanted to do and how to go about it and I suspect her motivation in being PM was not the glories of office but the attraction of a post where she could achieve objectives.

But going back to paedophilia – as in most things, what gets reported and what we get to know about is usually only the tip of the iceberg and there are countless vested interests in having it stay that way. That may sound a bit like conspiracy theory but it's only when these things get exposed you realise how awful it is – just look at the nonsense that was going on in Rotherham and is probably going on elsewhere. Do remember that the frontline of enforcing the law is with the police force who today, just like Lestrade in Sherlock's time are not always the brightest of the bright and they themselves cling on in opposition to having a proper "officer class" like they do in the Armed Forces, which is one of the few places where I have seen efficient management backed up by expertise.

Too often, the enforcement authorities are leaned on by those in political control – but hey that's been going on for centuries hasn't it?
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Old Oct 14, 2017, 5:57am   #45
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Paedophilia is unfortunately just like many other "problems" that are inherent in human society. If the problem is big enough and difficult enough then "authority" is always reluctant/slow/incompetent at dealing with it – and that's just another facet of human nature where we all like to deal with the easy problems and leave the difficult ones on one side. Isn't that why we find it difficult to get rid of a failed trade, spend a lot of our energy on the entry – which is "fun" and the reckoning doesn't come until later (just like using your credit card?).

Isn't that why great politicians are as rare as great people: they are the ones that see what needs to be done and make it their business to do it. In the current context I see Prime Minister May as someone who likes being PM but doesn't have much clue as to what needs doing and even less as to how to do it. Contrast this with Thatcher: whether or not you agree her politics, she at least knew what she wanted to do and how to go about it and I suspect her motivation in being PM was not the glories of office but the attraction of a post where she could achieve objectives.

But going back to paedophilia – as in most things, what gets reported and what we get to know about is usually only the tip of the iceberg and there are countless vested interests in having it stay that way. That may sound a bit like conspiracy theory but it's only when these things get exposed you realise how awful it is – just look at the nonsense that was going on in Rotherham and is probably going on elsewhere. Do remember that the frontline of enforcing the law is with the police force who today, just like Lestrade in Sherlock's time are not always the brightest of the bright and they themselves cling on in opposition to having a proper "officer class" like they do in the Armed Forces, which is one of the few places where I have seen efficient management backed up by expertise.

Too often, the enforcement authorities are leaned on by those in political control – but hey that's been going on for centuries hasn't it?
Principled people in short supply. Which is rather unfortunate given that the whole world seems to be moving ever faster towards moral bankruptcy.
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