How Do DayTraders Make Money in the Futures Market?

This is a discussion on How Do DayTraders Make Money in the Futures Market? within the First Steps forums, part of the Reception category; Hi V_T, Welcome to T2W. It's a question that's often asked - and rightly so - of vendors in this ...

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Old Feb 4, 2009, 12:32pm   #36
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Hi V_T,
Welcome to T2W.
It's a question that's often asked - and rightly so - of vendors in this game. However, my experience (considerable - when it comes to this specific topic) is that for the most part, they have plausible and very well polished answers which vary little from one vendor to the next. At the end of the day, you're either open to the idea that someone else has something that might benefit you that's worth paying for, or you're a stubborn mule that refuses to pay for such services as a matter of principle, regardless of how well recommended they may be. I don't bother asking the question any more as I already know that I'm in the former category. All that matters to me is whether the product / service 'fits' with me, my style and my trading objectives. Then it's just a question of money which is tricky because, as Stuart has already pointed out, it's reasonable that something that's 'guaranteed' to produce a profit costs a lot of money - you get what you pay for etc. In your particular case, if you decide you want to pay for some training, given that you're completely new to trading, I wouldn't have thought that this is the best place to start. I dare say Stuart will disagree!

Tim.
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Old Feb 4, 2009, 8:10pm   #37
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Hi timsk,

I suspected that a response such as yours might be forthcoming - thanks anyway.

I might add that I am not a sceptic to any 'paid for solution', as this would be just blatantly stupid, I just want to know if there is any future for me in this trade. Maybe there are free trials of trading software that I may try. Then, obviously pay for if I wish to keep using it. I know a lot of software these days has a free trial element to it.

I beleive that if they are not forthcoming with a free trial, then they are not selling a genuine product.

Any offers - anyone?
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Old Feb 5, 2009, 9:38am   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicaldaytrader View Post
. . .That must REALLY seem like a lot of money to Tim!
It's more than I earned last year!

Thanks for your earlier extended response Stuart, although I'm starting to get a little worried about your relationship with your older brother. I'm doing a counselling course next month, at the end of which I'll be wanting to practice my new found skills. Knowing how enthusiastic many Americans are about psychotherapy and related skills, perhaps we can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement: counselling in return for DayRaider 2.0? Now isn't that just the best offer you've had in a long, long, time?

Tim.
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Old Feb 5, 2009, 10:35am   #39
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Hi V_T,
I'm thinking of writing an article for the K'Lab as there is so much confusion about vendors. Your short post raises a lot of pertinent issues . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture Travel View Post
. . .I might add that I am not a sceptic to any 'paid for solution', as this would be just blatantly stupid . . .
The two attitudes that I refered to in my reply to your first post are equally valid. In spite of what you might think, there are many people here on T2W who believe with a passion that any 'paid for solution' is indeed 'blatantly stupid'. They will argue that trading cannot be taught (beyond the known mechanics of the industry) and that all good traders are much like good musicians or artists. That is to say, while they may be influenced by their contemporaries and predecessors, they manage to fashion something that's unique to them. This leaves the people that try and copy them. The best that can be said of any such artist is that their work is 'in the school of' (Titian - or whoever). To my knowledge, no artist has ever equalled - let alone bettered - another artist by copying them. If we apply this to Stuart and his offering, the critics will say that he may well have a great product / strategy that's hugely profitable for him, but there's no way it'll be hugely profitable for you or me. Furthermore, because it is largely mechanical, even if it does work now, it's highly unlikely to work next month or next year because the markets are dynamic and forever changing. Lastly, subscribers to such services aren't 'real' traders and don't understand the markets. If they did, they wouldn't need the products / services of the vendor. When the system fails, or the vendor goes out of business, the subscribers are left floundering, unsure what to do next. Naturally, Stuart will argue that this will never happen! On this last point, prospective customers have to make up their own minds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture Travel View Post
I just want to know if there is any future for me in this trade.
IMO, your best way of answering that question is to immerse yourself in this forum for a week. If, at the end of it, you wonder where the time has gone and why all the food in the fridge has gone off and the post remains unopened, then you have your answer. Jumping into any course in the early days isn't the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture Travel View Post
Maybe there are free trials of trading software that I may try. Then, obviously pay for if I wish to keep using it. I know a lot of software these days has a free trial element to it.
Indeed there are. The problem you face is that actually there's loads and loads of them out there and, until you have some idea as to what to look for and what to avoid (that's well over 90% of them) you're going to be pisssing in the wind. You'll probably try one or two - they won't work - and then you'll conclude that trading isn't for you. I did this, only I wasn't smart enough to go for the free trial; I got out my credit card on the first day. I soon abandoned the system that I'd payed for, but stuck with learning to trade because I wanted to recoup the money I'd foolishly paid out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture Travel View Post
I beleive that if they are not forthcoming with a free trial, then they are not selling a genuine product.
Most vendors offer some kind of a free trial or a guarantee. In Stuart's case, it's clear that some training is required in the use of his software as well as instruction about the strategy as a whole. He can't offer a free trial as he would waste countless hours with people who wouldn't then become subscribers. It simply wouldn't work as a business model; hence his guarantee.

If nothing else, I hope that this post offers some insight that trading is a large and complex field, there are many issues to address if you're going to be successful at it. It looks so beguilingly simple: you buy, you sell; you win or you lose. The old adage sums it up perfectly: 'trading is simple but it isn't easy'. Ain't that the truth.
Tim.
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Last edited by timsk; Feb 5, 2009 at 10:40am.
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Old Feb 5, 2009, 11:09am   #40
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Hi Tim,

Your post is very interesting. I realise that I am right in thinking that the majority of the money to be made in day trading is by the vendors of 'solutions'. I get the feeling that professional traders are in the minority, and they possess a talent for technical/market analysis that other less talented people cannot learn. Like any talent - you either have it, or you don't.

Having only been day trading using spread betting for a week, I have learnt a lot, and find that using forex is easier than other instruments, as it adhears to patterns and trends more than any other (I could be wrong). I have had some success at predicting movements, using analysis of support, and resistance, but not enough to warrant thinking this is a great business.

It would be nice to hear from traders who do make money.
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Old Feb 7, 2009, 4:32pm   #41
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mechanicaldaytrader started this thread Here's your free trial dudes..note the closed captioning, noting the reversal points.



Yes, it's a Super 8 mm silent film, do not adjust your speakers. If you want to hear my voice, open your wallet..lol

Paid subscribers have much cooler/sharper/bigger videos which you can see via a GoToMeeting session after you complete the Fundamentals of Futures Trading seminar on the condition that you whip out the credit card if I show you clear, concise trading rules with tight stops and known profit objectives.

Proprietary terms below in ALL CAPS.

Long Trading Rules:
Buy coequal GREEN levels if RHS trading rules occur (Fundamentals of Futures Trading) & you have TWO+ DOW BEHAVIORS (One Minute Methodology Subscription required). Consider exiting first long contract at HIGH DEVIATION 'x' minutes after Long Entry. 2nd contract exited based on Dow Behaviors/Time/Price behavior or if an Uptrend is occurring (market stays >= POWERFUL PURPLE.

If Uptrend occurs 'x' minutes past DRUP re-enter Long at URUP (timed entry @ MAX OS condition

Short entry rules are COEQUAL ORANGE/MAX OB conditions (DayRaider 2.0 subscription) based on DOW BEHAVIORS and BOY SCOUT shows NEGATIVE DEVIATION.

Exiting positions is always fun in the futures market, cuz you're not sure when you first enter the market how long things will continue going in one direction; trading software should give you real time reporting if you are in a trend or not - mine does, it definitely lowers the stress. Taking a "trading range" trade typically nets 25-35 MIni Dow points and you're in the market about 4 to 12 minutes BTW

If you want the low margin rates and possibly lowest trading account minimums, look up Global Futures. Ask for George. I don't get any spiffs - George shows up every day and does what he says - which is hard to find these days.

No more whining. All those that want a free trial, I'll be sure and ask your boss if he got a free trial before he hired you...lol

Stuart
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Old Feb 7, 2009, 5:24pm   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timsk View Post


If we apply this to Stuart and his offering, the critics will say that he may well have a great product / strategy that's hugely profitable for him, but there's no way it'll be hugely profitable for you or me. Furthermore, because it is largely mechanical, even if it does work now, it's highly unlikely to work next month or next year because the markets are dynamic and forever changing. Lastly, subscribers to such services aren't 'real' traders and don't understand the markets. If they did, they wouldn't need the products / services of the vendor. When the system fails, or the vendor goes out of business, the subscribers are left floundering, unsure what to do next. Naturally, Stuart will argue that this will never happen! On this last point, prospective customers have to make up their own minds.
Not a system, a methodology...systems are rigid, inflexible and probably will have long periods of drawdowns during the best of times.

Methodology is flexible, uses SOME discretion to avoid repetitive losses or large risks..Paid subscribers can backtest the methodology as long as the data goes back on the data feed (a long time)...if they're dissatisified with it, I'll immediately credit them all they paid less $100 no questions asked once I receive a written request stating why within 2 days of their subscription start date. PayPal has a procedure for refunding customers, I will use that (I have never used it, but I am sure it is pretty fast). No risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timsk View Post
Indeed there are. The problem you face is that actually there's loads and loads of them out there and, until you have some idea as to what to look for and what to avoid (that's well over 90% of them) you're going to be pisssing in the wind. You'll probably try one or two - they won't work - and then you'll conclude that trading isn't for you. I did this, only I wasn't smart enough to go for the free trial; I got out my credit card on the first day. I soon abandoned the system that I'd payed for, but stuck with learning to trade because I wanted to recoup the money I'd foolishly paid out.
There is tons of due diligence displayed on my site, especially after a person finishes the Fundamentals course; they know the technical causes of all reversals in the market I trade. If you consider any vendor, ask for due diligence (videos of past charts is a huge help).

Quote:
Originally Posted by timsk View Post
Most vendors offer some kind of a free trial or a guarantee. In Stuart's case, it's clear that some training is required in the use of his software as well as instruction about the strategy as a whole. He can't offer a free trial as he would waste countless hours with people who wouldn't then become subscribers. It simply wouldn't work as a business model; hence his guarantee.
Follow the trading rules and training regimen and you will succeed. Go your own way, you will spin your wheels. I am a stickler on homework. You must replicate the methodology that I clearly, succinctly present in PDF form. None of this is difficult for a 6th grade general math student (basic algebraic equations, IF/THEN conditions, daytraders always solve for the "missing factor" before taking a trade). You are trading against computerized programs owned by the Institutions...you must have a computerized method to compete and piggyback their trades, otherwise you are playing with fire.

Stuart

Last edited by mechanicaldaytrader; Feb 7, 2009 at 5:39pm.
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