How Do DayTraders Make Money in the Futures Market?

This is a discussion on How Do DayTraders Make Money in the Futures Market? within the First Steps forums, part of the Reception category; Is Curtis Faith not proof of Richard Dennis' ability to mentor and teach? I am totally lost of how you ...

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Old Jul 7, 2009, 2:31pm   #111
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Is Curtis Faith not proof of Richard Dennis' ability to mentor and teach? I am totally lost of how you can say that after 4 years there is no way to have any 1 of his students say post a few days worth of trading logs showing the 100 ticks he guarantees. I will respectfully say that we can agree to disagree about the validity of this "dayraider" nonsense.
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Old Jul 7, 2009, 3:53pm   #112
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Hi vrtrop22b,
Quote:
Originally Posted by vrtrop22b View Post
Is Curtis Faith not proof of Richard Dennis' ability to mentor and teach?
No, the exact opposite. If you'd read his book (Way of the Turtle by Curtis M. Faith) - you'd know that not all of the Turtles made it. Guess what the ones that failed did? You guessed it, they blamed Richard Dennis and his teaching. Curtis Faith writes:
"I remember one in particular (of the other Turtles) who was convinced that Rich (Richard Dennis) had given me and a few of the others secret rules that he had not shared with the class at large. That idea was completely ludicrous. Why would Rich intentionally leave out important information and then give traders his own money for them to lose, not to mention losing his bet (with William Eckhardt, his friend and business partner)".

He goes on to write:
"The idea that Rich had left out some key ideas was the easiest way for our paranoid Turtle to explain his inability to trade successfully during the program. This is a common problem in trading and in life. Many people blame their failure on others or on circumstances outside their control. They fail and then blame everyone but themselves. Inability to take responsibility for one's own actions and their consequences is probably the single most significant factor leading to failure."

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Originally Posted by vrtrop22b View Post
I am totally lost of how you can say that after 4 years there is no way to have any 1 of his students say post a few days worth of trading logs showing the 100 ticks he guarantees.
I repeat yet again that the student's ability or lack thereof to make the profits does not in any way reflect the validity of the methodology. That said, if you want a positive review, look no further than Pitbull's post #70 on page 9 of this thread. I recommend you pay particular attention to the final short paragraph. Lee writes:
My due diligence of mentors led me to a shortlist of three top futures traders/trainers. Stuart came out on tops after an initial chat as the other 2 S&P traders focussed more on scalping the order book with big size. This did not appeal to me, but Stuart’s method of catching every reversal and staying in the trend for 90% suited me. Stuart knows the Dow like the back of his hand after 12years watching and trading the same market day in day out. Potential students must be serious about trading and earning v.good money as Stuart does not want time wasters. The most important part of Stuart is his teaching and his passion of how good the method is, he literally has it cracked! What he describes is, in my eyes, complex and extremely technical but he makes sure you don't move onto the next part until it is fully understood. You do have to do your homework and start thinking for yourself and not just having it handed to you on a plate. Some people would disagree with this, but in my experience, a lazy trader who cant think for themselves or take the initiative and back test the theory, will IMO not be successful. It does take 3-4 weeks to memorize and back test the theory. Stuarts method starts at the ground roots, how to read a chart, even this opened my eyes, then you learn about the reversals specific to the Dow. Then you learn about institutional mechanical systems and 5 day money flow and where they take positions to hold overnight. Yes you can even trade with the institutions overnight. Then you learn to identify every reversal that happens, you can describe a whole days worth of trading and explain why it reversed. Lastly there are behaviors that are only exhibited by the Dow. After you’ve worked out if the mechanicals are long or short, you wait for your reversal rule, which has to coincide with 2+ Dow behaviors, then you learn about how to take low risk entries in Dayraider. Dayraider has proprietary indicators that graphically display optimum entry and exit points. It is not a signal system, be careful here, it is a methodology that still requires some discretion and judgment. The learning materials are awesome, there are many streaming videos and you have unlimited support for a whole year, none of this 1-2 months support that some mentors offer, you can just skype Stuart whenever which is really handy.

I used to believe that the indices had no movement, well if you catch every reversal which I am 70% there, then you got yourself, 10-18 low risk reversals ranging from 30-200 points each. Yesterday we had a 100 point downtrend, with 2 20-30 point pullbacks, then a 100 point uptrend with 3 20-30 point pullbacks. By my calculations that’s 350 points average. Already this week, 3 days, I have made 800+ points.


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Originally Posted by vrtrop22b View Post
I will respectfully say that we can agree to disagree about the validity of this "dayraider" nonsense.
Indeed, we have each made our points!
Tim.
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Old Jul 7, 2009, 4:35pm   #113
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timsk, you are quite the advocate for Stuart. To poke a hole in your story, remember Dennis had multiple successful students. Jerry Parker, Liz Cheval, etc. If I failed under Richard Dennis' mentorship and studying his methodology, then I would say that there is something about me lacking if people who trained with me were verifiably successful. Who are Stuart's Faith, Parker, and Cheval. That is all I ask. Not to hammer this into the ground but 4+ YEARS into this for Christ's sake. When I was with him he had a guy in Northern California named Dave who he himself called his track star that was not making money. Timsk, I just don't get you defending this guy ...... it's puzzling to me.
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Old Jul 7, 2009, 5:50pm   #114
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Hello again vrtrop22b!
I can't trade name for name with you the failed Turtles Vs the successful ones, as it's human nature to overlook the failures and write about Curtis Faith and the other successful traders. But, as my extract made clear, there were failures; they weren't all universally successful by any means. The reasons why Stuart's successful students (other than Lee) don't come forward could be numerous. Perhaps they aren't members of this forum. Sure enough, they could join, but the 'bash a vendor' lobby would jump down their throat if they posted a glowing review with their opening post. If he wanted to, Stuart could easily get a few friends to join and do just that in return for a few beers. But there's little point. Other than that, if you're a happy subscriber trading his methods successfully - and happen to be a reasonably well established forum member - would you really want to get embroiled in this debate? Of course not, you'd be too busy making those 100 points or more each day!

In spite of how it might appear, I'm actually not 'quite the advocate for Stuart' that you think I am. However, I do have a bee in my bonnet on the subject of trading coaches, so I will stick up for any and all of them that are maligned unfairly. As soon as concrete evidence is provided that someone is a snake oil salesmen out to rip off green newbies, I'll stick the knife in and hound 'em out of here faster than you can say holy grail. With the exception of multi nicking on ET, I can't see that Stuart has done anything wrong. Back your claims up with something other than a few wishy washy anecdotes and I'll happily - and quickly - update my view to reflect the facts.

Anyway, I think we're about done on the subject, but you're welcome to have the last word if you'd like to . . .

Tim.
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Last edited by timsk; Jul 7, 2009 at 6:02pm.
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Old Jul 7, 2009, 6:05pm   #115
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Trading

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Originally Posted by mechanicaldaytrader View Post
Just had a thought...ANYONE that says I am a scam artist I have the following challenge:

pick any 5 dow trading days in a row
meet with me via WebEx with your REAL NAME and real email address
I will prove the One Minute Methodology works with only THREE Dow Behaviors (time rule, price rule, trend rule)
I will prove 500 Mini Dow points in 5 days
I will prove Kindergarten Trades

The WebEx video will be recorded (audio and desktop) and uploaded to YouTube.com for the World to see.

I will then document that you made a false allegation to me and it will be in Google forever and ever...

Don't make allegations you can't back up.

The Mechanical Day Trader

I have a question to you. If your system is good (I am not doubting you or your system), why don`t you simply make a ton of money and enjoy your life instead of bringing it out to the public?
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Old Jul 7, 2009, 6:40pm   #116
 
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Tim, I have to say that I respect the way that you carry yourself. That is all.
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Old Jul 7, 2009, 8:00pm   #117
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How DayRaider Came To Fruition

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Originally Posted by Jumpinjack View Post
I have a question to you. If your system is good (I am not doubting you or your system), why don`t you simply make a ton of money and enjoy your life instead of bringing it out to the public?

Hey Jumpinjack (great name!) ...welcome to the circular firing squad, where nothing gets put to bed, rather arguments that are nuked two weeks ago crawl out of the sewer grate yet again.

Many years ago the guys in the Chicago Pits said it couldn't be done...my thesis since 1998 has been that there are mechanical systems that move some index markets in a logical manner via time and price. Recognizing and categorizing institutional stops and measuring the time/price of mechanical systems' entry and exit became a favorite sport of mine, since I listened to the S&P live pit call for about a year (now THAT is a conversation killer!).

I knew I was on to something when I started swing trading Dell stock in the 90's (before I got into futures) a month before earnings would come out. I bought 2 lots of 500 shares at the end of the year, sold them before earnings and cleared about $20 a share...My broker at Morgan Stanley was stunned...How does some yoko who never traded before (of any size) come in, make two trades and net about $20,000?? It's then that I knew that the clowns in NY and Chicago had no clue how money was made. Dell also always split in the summer...that set up a arbitrage trade before and after earnings & split announcement. I figured this stuff out all by myself back in those days in Tradestation 4.0 and Maria Bartiromo and those big eyes of hers on CNBC.

I have had 3 earthly loves in life (besides my latina) by the time 2000i came out. Programming, Training/Coaching, & Trading, in that order. Trading is rather boring, it is a lonely existence and it's impossible to talk shop with others cuz they have their methods and conversations just go nowhere.

Next, I was limited by technology, until 2000i came out (and Win 98) there was no pc platform to really compete against the mainframes of London, NY and Chicago. 2000i was a godsend compared to clunky TS 4.0.

Lastly, when the One Minute Methodology had been tweaked to an extent that it could be taught in a logical format with streaming videos, inexpensive platforms for charting, etc, I started marketing part time. I find it a helluva lot more fun to program and teach then to full time trade..part time trading is not recommended unless I trade the same times every day during the week, which I'm in the process of doing right now.

Now let's bring it up to early 2009. I have had quite a few students take the plunge into this. Most never knew how to read a chart, so I teach everyone the basics. Some have done very well just completing the Fundamentals course. I have a guy who sent me a referral (the referral just upgraded to my TS software yesterday) who will never talk to anyone (or me) cuz he's a old fashioned real estate guy....and old guys don't want to publicly admit they learned something from some computer whipper snapper I think. He nailed a 100 point Mini Dow trade the first day after completing the Fundamentals course. And he nailed 2 more 100 point trades the next day. 300 Mini Dow points ...he understands the chart formations, institutional stops AND he has the balls to pull the trade.

A few I've taught crash and burn in Fundamentals...maybe 5 never went onto Module I and Module II ( think they were also broke and couldn't afford it). The rest completed the homework well, with a couple exceptions (Ken C from Kalifornia a glittering example).

There are two types of guys that have been past subscribers - Older guys that know everything or are unwilling after Module II to seek advice on how to become a better trader (one exception to this so far) and then younger guys or guys my age who, when they start daytrading or paper trading are resistant to daily one on one's to go over their strengths, weaknesses, good trades, trades they blew or missed.

If a guy DOES this he generally is unwilling to memorize Module I, which is a whole 5 pages of big type and pictures. I clearly explain before they sign up ya gotta memorize about 20 terms and you replicate a "trading template" once you determine the condition of the market (uptrend, downtrend, trading range) .

Charlie, Ken a few others would actually ARGUE with me about the freaking methodology and a live chart....amazing....One day they would be soaring at the top of the clouds when the nailed a EOD trade for 80 points (Charlie in Costa Rica many times claimed this) or a YT reversal...then for 4 days they'd be in the dumps. They'd ask about what to do in the market after the open...I'd ask, what is YT (this occurs at all market opens)? how many points? What Dow Behavior has occurred or is about to occur? (There are 3 Behaviors that control about 75% of all trades..that's in Module I).

It's about ten months since I rolled out the inexpensive DayRaider platform and the above results have occurred time and time again.. people want something handed to them on a silver platter...

The other thing I take exception to is you and others may refer to my "snake oil" as a system. It ain't no system, never has been called a system -- a system implies that it is automatic and 100% mechanical. Well, the Dow Behaviors tend to work 80%+ of the time in all times and all markets. However, if Gold is soaring, Bernake is printing a trillion dollars and devaluing the USD then the dang Dow is going smash thru 2 or 3 mechanical behaviors (that can be backtested weeks, months years) because the 5 day mechanical systems smell blood and they have another 350 points down to go today, tommorrow and into the 3rd day.

All this is clearly taught in page 1 of Module II and can be copiously backtested.

From early 09 to now I have been striving to upgrade the DayRaider platform that will be more robust and handle some short comings of DayRaider during the Globex.

Spent May and June trying to put the methodology on the Ensign Windows platform, a inexpensive but powerful charting package...however, the programming is incredibly stone age and the publisher violates tons of IT and Windows Conventions...What a waste of time. I was able to replicate the 'deviation' mechanicals perfectly however. Using Ensign was an attempt to keep the price very low and avoid Tradestation sticker shock.

In the past month I've converted everything that was developed Ensign (and stuff I couldn't program in Ensign) to Tradestation (about a week or less) and have now concluded programming, testing, and documenting for subscribers.

So, as I said previously, I'll be trading this summer, not counting a summer recess in mid August.

The prices on the website are high and if people don't want it, can't afford it then that's the desired effect. This noble experiment has taken many years of fine tuning but it's done and it works all the time, thanks Tradestation!!

VTROPP was a previous client pre-DayRaider...he and his buddy worked IT second shift. They both got into it but were unwilling for me to MENTOR them in paper trading and live trading. I think they lost about $2k or $3k each and they never met with me once they were taught the Methodology. Granted, the Tradestation programs were not NEARLY as accurate as they are now but still...they both lacked the humility to meet with me after a trading session and go over what they did or did not understand. They just disappeared off the radar.

So, yeah, I expect to get very few newbies from now on, since I've jacked the price..but really I can't be bothered, since Obama is gonna take half it away in taxes anyway. The ones that do sign up will be well funded and will be able to know some Tradestation track stars that are now using the Ensign erDayRaider Upgrade.

Dave/California is a great guy, but his big weakness was he was scared to trade, yet he'd call the market perfectly. It's a shame, cuz he missed a couple $1,000 trades by a couple ticks early on, and I think that really hurt his confidence. He also was unwilling to be open and go over past trading scenarios/successes/failures.

I think I need to take some sort of responsibility somewhere, I need to develop some type of screening material to weed that personality out of future newbies.

So, yes, now I'm trading and will be posting statements on the website starting the end of next week...my schedule is horrible the rest of this week and early next. Life is good, no complaints.

Stuart K.

Last edited by mechanicaldaytrader; Jul 7, 2009 at 9:35pm. Reason: typos
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Old Jul 8, 2009, 2:00am   #118
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Ok, I can't pull my hair out over this. Again, we will all agree that we just totally disagree. Stuart how about you give progress reports on your newbies and we can see how this ends up. Have them register on these boards and post their feelings. Perhaps when they graduate from the paper trading stages they can keep us doubting Thomases up to date on their path to success. Like you mentioned, you expect that the newbies that you now have will be a better fit for your methodology due to your screening. This should up your success rates even more. I have said my peace and everyone knows how I feel about Stuart's methodology.
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Old Jul 8, 2009, 3:17am   #119
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timsk, did I miss something? Who is Lee? He/She was mentioned as a successful student of Stuart's. Can we get some background on Lee and get him or her posting on here?
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Old Jul 8, 2009, 6:33am   #120
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EUR/USD Short

[QUOTE
So, yes, now I'm trading and will be posting statements on the website starting the end of next week...my schedule is horrible the rest of this week and early next. Life is good, no complaints.

Stuart K.[/QUOTE]


Well whatever, I`m short eur/usd and long usd/chf and this position (last week included) is bagging me some big cash. And if eur/usd goes down to 1.34 area I`ll have more cash than I deserve! Thats all there is to it.
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