What size account to start with?

This is a discussion on What size account to start with? within the First Steps forums, part of the Reception category; What is the 'begining' of a trade, that you may miss, for all sorts of reasons....taking the dog out, taxing ...

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Old Apr 18, 2008, 10:49pm   #31
Joined Feb 2007
What is the 'begining' of a trade, that you may miss, for all sorts of reasons....taking the dog out, taxing the car, unblocking the sink,...all this going on at the begining of a trade?

Have you ever missed a trade whilst mowing the lawn? (that's not metaphor, by the way, i don't mean to be rude)

Are all your orders, manual market?
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Old Apr 18, 2008, 11:05pm   #32
Joined Oct 2006
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Originally Posted by Paul71 View Post
What is the 'begining' of a trade, that you may miss, for all sorts of reasons....taking the dog out, taxing the car, unblocking the sink,...all this going on at the begining of a trade?

Have you ever missed a trade whilst mowing the lawn? (that's not metaphor, by the way, i don't mean to be rude)

Are all your orders, manual market?
================================================== ==========

Ive prob had em all, but not yet the Nuclear explosion --- THAT would get my attention !

treat each "arrow" as the "optimum" or "perfect" entry point !

all my orders are manual, with a lot at market, but not the exits --- those are almost always "limit orders", although i may exit a trade manually for some reason, but NEVER where i wouldnt place a limit order (i often place a limit order, especially after 5pm edt here in the states, WELL BELOW my actual tp point --- if the mm is gonna "headfake" me, then i can return the favor --- unfortunately i have to exit manually or lose the exit !)

mp
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Old Apr 18, 2008, 11:19pm   #33
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Originally Posted by mp6140 View Post
================================================== ==========

Ive prob had em all, but not yet the Nuclear explosion --- THAT would get my attention !

treat each "arrow" as the "optimum" or "perfect" entry point !

all my orders are manual, with a lot at market, but not the exits --- those are almost always "limit orders", although i may exit a trade manually for some reason, but NEVER where i wouldnt place a limit order (i often place a limit order, especially after 5pm edt here in the states, WELL BELOW my actual tp point --- if the mm is gonna "headfake" me, then i can return the favor --- unfortunately i have to exit manually or lose the exit !)

mp

Ok, ok, ok. I can't see any of this 'really' benefitting myself. Let's call it a draw. No more for me, and hopefully we can still be ammicable?

What says you, Mp?
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Old Apr 18, 2008, 11:37pm   #34
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Ok, ok, ok. I can't see any of this 'really' benefitting myself. Let's call it a draw. No more for me, and hopefully we can still be ammicable?

What says you, Mp?
================================================== ===============

paul ----- bobala !

i was just entering into a theoretical discussion --- who knows, next week i might take the opposite side to what i took this time !

exits are where the profit lives or is lost, imho --- but its of no real matter this way or that, as long as i simply trade and can afford the many sister acts i require for my health during the week !

now, why does it not affect you ---- you one of those one minute chart flippers ?

LOL

mp
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 12:01am   #35
Joined Feb 2007
Mp,

1min, 15min or 1hr....it doesn't matter, It's all about seeing value (cheesey or what). If a trader can't see it (value) sub 5 mins, it doesn't mean that they are a dunce or a bit slow, it just means that they are not as talented or as natural at spotting value within the market at that TF, as the other trader may be.

Here's the crazy bit...

There are 'non intraday' traders on here who openly 'rubbish' BO strats, and yet, their style and TF is dependant on price breaking into and out of multiple critical prices and 'zones'.

But still, it's a laff.

Goodnight, Mp.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 9:36am   #36
 
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Originally Posted by Paul71 View Post
How can exits be more important than entries? You can't exit if you have not entered!?
The point I was trying to make is that when it comes to developing ones strategy sufficient time should also be given to developing the Exit Condition AND the Money Management / Position Sizing Rules. Maybe I should have re-worded my original comments but I believed the underlying message I was trying to convey was clear. Apologies if it wasn't.

I have known a few people who started out in Trading spending numerous amounts of time developing the "perfect" entry. Once they had believed they had found this they felt they were ready to start trading.
Little time was given to developing the exit condition. When I suggested that they should spend a similar amount of time looking at different type of exits, they didn't seem so excited as they just wanted to start trading. Consequently, they would normally just quickly pluck one idea from the latest book they were reading and simply use that!!! The same went for Money Management / Position Sizing. When asked what they intended to use for risk most would say "err.. 3-5%" When I asked why they chose that value, the replies were normally along the lines of "read it in a book" , "thats about the same amount as others use....", etc, etc.

IMO Anyone can enter a position. The "key" to successful & profitable trading is how one manages the position (good or bad) once in the trade, and this is heavily reliant of the exit condition & the risk employed on that trade.

I do believe the Entry is important (as obviously without one we don't have a trade) but as the timeframe being traded increases this element is less critical IMO. One of the people (whom I have mentioned above) was developing a EOD strategy and from memory the average holding period was around 6-12mths. However, he would spend the majority of his time trying to find that "perfect" entry and as such neglected the other elements. Again, from memory, he was intending to use a % stop simply because it had been mentioned in one of his books and as a result felt it was a good choice, although he eventually realised he was giving back a lot of the profit.

At the end of the day I don't want to get into any form of argument with anyone about this as obviously different people have different views on this topic.
All I can say is, based on my OWN experiences, if ones focuses more time (or at the very least an equal amount) on Exits & Money Management they may become pleasantly surprised at the overall performance of their strategies.

Good Luck to all,

Chorlton
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Last edited by Chorlton; Apr 19, 2008 at 10:10am.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 12:14pm   #37
Joined Feb 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chorlton View Post
The point I was trying to make is that when it comes to developing ones strategy sufficient time should also be given to developing the Exit Condition AND the Money Management / Position Sizing Rules. Maybe I should have re-worded my original comments but I believed the underlying message I was trying to convey was clear. Apologies if it wasn't.

I have known a few people who started out in Trading spending numerous amounts of time developing the "perfect" entry. Once they had believed they had found this they felt they were ready to start trading.
Little time was given to developing the exit condition. When I suggested that they should spend a similar amount of time looking at different type of exits, they didn't seem so excited as they just wanted to start trading. Consequently, they would normally just quickly pluck one idea from the latest book they were reading and simply use that!!! The same went for Money Management / Position Sizing. When asked what they intended to use for risk most would say "err.. 3-5%" When I asked why they chose that value, the replies were normally along the lines of "read it in a book" , "thats about the same amount as others use....", etc, etc.

IMO Anyone can enter a position. The "key" to successful & profitable trading is how one manages the position (good or bad) once in the trade, and this is heavily reliant of the exit condition & the risk employed on that trade.

I do believe the Entry is important (as obviously without one we don't have a trade) but as the timeframe being traded increases this element is less critical IMO. One of the people (whom I have mentioned above) was developing a EOD strategy and from memory the average holding period was around 6-12mths. However, he would spend the majority of his time trying to find that "perfect" entry and as such neglected the other elements. Again, from memory, he was intending to use a % stop simply because it had been mentioned in one of his books and as a result felt it was a good choice, although he eventually realised he was giving back a lot of the profit.

At the end of the day I don't want to get into any form of argument with anyone about this as obviously different people have different views on this topic.
All I can say is, based on my OWN experiences, if ones focuses more time (or at the very least an equal amount) on Exits & Money Management they may become pleasantly surprised at the overall performance of their strategies.

Good Luck to all,

Chorlton

Morning Chorlton.

I agree with your sentiment, good post. There was no need to apologise, you're too polite, i suppose it's all just talk at the EOD.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 7:29pm   #38
 
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harrymonk started this thread Hi guys, thanks.
Just to clarify. I was kind of trying to be slightly humorous and poking fun at myself... in the fact of me being a newb and overtrading being quite easy, therefore my entry to a trade not being a problem due to lack of control....anyway...thanks for all the extra info.
I also find it interesting about the lack of stop loss, unfortunately for me due to lack of being able to check prices sometimes for up to 8hrs in a day and sometimes just as sensitive information might be being released I feel I have little choice but to use the stop loss.
This is just my own situation though and when I have a whole day to watch the markets, I normally just use a mental stop loss. One of the other reasons I have had large spaces for stops has been because of the occasional spikes in the sb prices.

I have been thinking more about my trading style now and think I might just try to go back to trading EOD data and go back to using paper trading until I have a little more time to devote to the markets and maybe a little more capital.

Thanks again for all your help.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 8:13pm   #39
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Hi,
I have been paper trading and simulation trading on and off for a few years, over the last year I have tried to take it more seriously and have been live trading almost daily when I have the time.

I have blown 2 accounts so far, and I know it was due to bad risk management, and it is something I am working on. The thing I would like to know is what is a good sized account to start with if you're spreadbetting.
My first account was £500 (which I put an extra £500 into to keep a trade open) that account lasted me about 1 month
My last account I only put £500 it lasted about 3 months this time, I kind of realised also that by betting £5 a point and leaving a 100 pt gap wiped out half my account on 2 trades ( I had built up the account by then)....so my question, although aimed at account size might also be a good risk size on the account.

At present I am saving up for my next account, so anything more than £3,000 would take me more than a year to get up and running.

Thanks

How much do you need?

Well, since i and others have slightly derailed your thread, i think it's only fair that maybe i should try to get it back on track.


Basically this question revolves around you, how competent you are, and how complex your strat is based on your competentcy and capital, this will give you an 'expectancy' over time.

So, there you have it. Now go and learn.
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Old Apr 19, 2008, 8:42pm   #40
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MP -- bottom line is hes still just a newb

and we cant forget it

paul has stated for you to learn, and learn YOU MUST because theres lions and tigers and sharks out there, not to forget the occassional wicked witch --- forex (all trading) is a process of learning to understand and then understanding whats happening and then profiting from it.

i fully believe ANYONE can learn to trade, although there will always be a top and bottom 10% with the vast majority bouncing around in the middle cause thats just the way it is with everything in this world !

TRADING is like anything else (and why not ?) --- you get out of it what you put into it and thats the bottom line, even though its old fashioned thinking.

aint no "get rich quick" thingie with trading, no matter WHAT the advertising says -- its a game of the placing of a wager on a situation whose outcome is decided by learnable movements and momentum and observable patterns of price movement (i copied that from another thread i was posting on) and you LEARN first and TRADE later !

so as paul stated --- go yee forth and become learned weedhopper ---- when the student is ready, the fortunes will appear ! (maybe)

mp
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