Theortical physics or applied maths?

Hi guys, newbie here,

I'm currently completing a theoretical physics Msc at imperial, I might do a PhD however I'm also quite keen on getting out into the "real world". Trading and quantitative analysis is something that I'm quite keen on - I have read a few finance books. My first Mphys was in Astrophysics at a Russell group uni - I spent my 4 year on placement at Harvard university, with a solid first. If I don't do a phd, is a Msc theoretical physicist worth anything when trying to get into trading (or maybe quant?) I'm also taking extra classes in c++ as well as knowing python and R and a few others. Or should I shift my second masters towards applied maths?

How should I try and get into this kind of work? graduate scheme? everywhere seems to want work experience!!

thanks guys.

at some stage you will have to decide whether you want a career in finance or a career as an academic. You could try applying as a grad to Investment Banks if you don't get in then do your PHD. If you go for the PHD then make sure you do some work placements/internships with IB's during your holiday's this will help you out.

a long time ago I had an interview at imperial maths dept. to discuss the possibility of a PHD in quant/trading. I was sat in a professors office, the place was a ****ing mess, books everywhere. He asked me if I was interested in making money or mathematics. This is a key question because if your objective is making money don't do a PHD. You need to get into the business world as quickly as possible. If you want to make serious money you either need to work in Banking or run your own company or be a professional investor.

Thanks MajorDutch, So does my first degree matter much? i.e what I studied? and what is the best way to get into IB? If I did do a Phd my plan was to use the holidays to do some internships/placements But like I said would like to get into a.s.a.p so are there any particular company I should apply to? Thanks

I’ve been in the business since ’99 most of these Harvard Phd types don’t add up to dog sh!t. Give me guys that are poor, smart, and hungry and no feelings. You win a few you lose a few but you keep on fighting. If you need a friend, get a dog. It’s trench warfare out there, pal

sparkyboy said:

Thanks MajorDutch, So does my first degree matter much? i.e what I studied? and what is the best way to get into IB? If I did do a Phd my plan was to use the holidays to do some internships/placements But like I said would like to get into a.s.a.p so are there any particular company I should apply to? Thanks

Click to expand...

you need to be clued up on all the investment banks and apply to their grad programs. I am sure if you google, top 20 investment banks you would get together a decent list.

Dduke raises a good point and I concur in that studying only gets you so far in trading. Experience/screen time and other aspects such as patience/discipline/emotional stability are as important if not more important.

You should find out whether trading actually matches your expectations. Most youngsters think trading is all about action, testosterone filled environments with banks of screens, screaming and shouting. In reality it can be quite different if you are a technical trader especially if you are a lone gun. If you trade daily technicals you balance this with a full time job/phd no problem if you heart is in it.

I stole that quote from gordon gekko. i did comp sci in the huxley building on queensgate back in the day, very fond memories i have of playing with all those unix sparc toys they had.
But seriously a good paying job in the city beats trading your own account any day, but dont leave it too late.

I had a choice in 91 between a number of jobs and an SERC funded (as it was called back then) PhD. I chose the money and have never looked back. Occassionally I reflect on that decision and wonder what would have been if I'd have continued in research. It would have fulfilled one aspect of my personality which is I like thinking about complicated stuff.

Likelihood is that you'll always be left with some small regret on a big decision like that but ultimately you should do what makes you happiest in the now and not worry too much about the future. You've got a lot of life ahead of you to change things if you really want to change them.

PHD in either, well into 6 figs starting in HFT. Hell, look at Renaissance Technologies. Don't listen the butt hurt uneducated cretins!

robster970 said:

I had a choice in 91 between a number of jobs and an SERC funded (as it was called back then) PhD. I chose the money and have never looked back. Occassionally I reflect on that decision and wonder what would have been if I'd have continued in research. It would have fulfilled one aspect of my personality which is I like thinking about complicated stuff.

Likelihood is that you'll always be left with some small regret on a big decision like that but ultimately you should do what makes you happiest in the now and not worry too much about the future. You've got a lot of life ahead of you to change things if you really want to change them.

Click to expand...

Thanks robster, if I did go straight into banking I might take a Phd later on in life as a retirement gift . Or do a Phd and then try and get into banking. I really enjoy research, but getting into academia (proff ect) is a bit of a long shot - so I'm looking at what other areas my reasearch and math skills may come into use. Trading and quantative finance seems to be one area - but maybe I'm wrong?. As people keep saying I sould be trying to get into it while I'm young - I already have a good masters from southampton, imperial is much better, but if I'm trying to break into trading/quant should I just try to get in now? and is worth having a more mathematical degree? I could stick out the hard therotical masters (prob get 1st r 2.2) or jump ship to the applied math course (more likly to get a 1st) or get out now and try and get into trading/quant a.s.a.p. Thanks again guys.

I'm not sure every place where you could get a degree in math/finance has direct applications to trading. Quantitative modeling is hot right now, and a PhD could make you more appealing to get placement - especially if you were doing the modeling now. Start trading, and learn via hard knocks - with controlled risk mind you - like 0.1% capital risked per trade. That way you are more familiar with the visceral reality of trading.

Look at Long Term Capital - very academic, very sound theory, very much blew up b/c they didn't implement a basic loss control strategy. Cut those losses.

If you can develop a model or program that shows you have double the net gains versus net drawdown or better over many markets/history/and performs real-time - i would think many banks or trading companies would find a place for you.

Its really about what you can do, not what you know i'd say, could you do both - pursue a degree and study trading and trade?

Ok but I do have an Mphys is that enough? there are job offers for people with this kind of masters - would it be worth applying and dropping out of uni if I get it and do a Phd part time in a years time? I got a solid first and several PhD offers but didn't take them up as I wanted to study theoretical physics - no I've realised that is A LOT of work - working on skills that aren't really gonna help - so I can either try to switch to math or apply for a load of quant/trader jobs her in London that are looking for maths and physics masters - get some experience. Would dropping out look bad - i.e like I'm not committed to have enough work effect or would it look like a sensible move?

natureboy said:

I'm not sure every place where you could get a degree in math/finance has direct applications to trading.

Click to expand...

That doesn't matter for getting a job. Wisedom > Knowledge. For example, if you're looking to get into the programming (Quant side, not the crap that IT puts out), they'll want maths/physics (astro/quantum/whatever), computer science won't get you in the door.

Grow a beard man and chill out

:smart:

I wish I'd never discovered trading. I don't make any money from it so maybe I'd feel differently if I did but that's besides the point lol . Go get your PhD and do something exciting with big machines and lasers and stuff. The world need more scientists and less traders imo. Personally I think scientists should be paid traders salaries and vice versa but what do I know.

"I wish I'd never discovered trading. Go get your PhD and do something exciting" - really why? Is it not taht exciting? i'm looking into quant more than trader.

I would love to so a Phd and stay in academia - but theres way to much compatioan and I'm not willing to work my but off and spend my best years as a post doc - not settleing down with a family - all the while working towards the dream of becoming proff only to find that there are next to no positions. I want a career that goes somewhere - I don't mind working my but off and spend my best years working hard if it gets me somewhere (money or a career). I was luck enough to get to know sevearl proffs over the years who took a likeing to me - they said in their day an academic career was obtainable - but now a days they wouldn't bother, too many qualified people and took little demain/funding. Quants are different they are in demand because they make poeple a lot of money and are therefore valued - academics nt so much. So academai is not for me - but I ove math and I want to have a career in modelling - I'm looking into Phd's with alot of modelling, but at the sae time I want experiance! Since I have one masters I thuoght maybe I should quit the second masters and get a job in that field (expeiance) and then apply for Phd's next year in a modelling area, that way I would have experiance and get the career I want. Very stressed at the mo :/
what do you guys think - the quantum course isinsane I mean It is the second best in europe (secnd to part III) but If applied math will look just as good I might just as well switch or completely drop out and get some real experiance? Thabks guys.

Sounds like you've already made your mind up on whether you want to get into trading or stick to academia

I think you'd be more at home somewhere like Wilmott forums. Those guys know their beans and I'm inclined to believe that there are more than a few employed quants bouncing around over there. Whether they'll be genuinely helpful rather than try trash your career and keep the competition down is another story though lol.

My advice would be to call up a few companies and see exactly what is is that they'd prefer from candidates and what skills they want from employees. Anything you get from this place is likely to be hearsay or guesswork as while there are a few quant-minded people and quant-finance traders, there are no quant/algo/prog/modelling bulge bracket types here afaik.

PS

sparkyboy said:

"I wish I'd never discovered trading. Go get your PhD and do something exciting" - really why? Is it not taht exciting? i'm looking into quant more than trader

Click to expand...

I almost forgot that you're obviously a geek of the highest order if you're looking to do a quantitative PhD. Yes you may well find the modelling extremely exciting

Doesn't matter what you so academic sunshine. All the quals in the world will not make you a trader.

scose-no-doubt said:

I wish I'd never discovered trading. I don't make any money from it so maybe I'd feel differently if I did but that's besides the point lol . Go get your PhD and do something exciting with big machines and lasers and stuff. The world need more scientists and less traders imo. Personally I think scientists should be paid traders salaries and vice versa but what do I know.

Click to expand...

That's why most scientists end up in finance - science doesn't pay.

robster970 said:

That's why most scientists end up in finance - science doesn't pay.

Click to expand...

crazy innit.

Bint_Crusher said:

Doesn't matter what you so academic sunshine. All the quals in the world will not make you a trader.

Click to expand...

I hear this bandied about a lot but where is the empirical evidence? I don't understand how anyone can believe that academic quals don't make you a better trader in today's uber-tech markets.

Take bonds for example. You telling me learning a quant disciple that enables you to rip apart yield curves and assess ppricing won't help you trade them? Codswollop.