How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

This is a discussion on How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards. within the First Steps forums, part of the Reception category; Forker, What you have to take into account mate is the fact that Dion has never traded under pressure. Dions ...

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Old May 27, 2011, 3:27pm   #31
Joined Apr 2010
Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Forker,

What you have to take into account mate is the fact that Dion has never traded under pressure. Dions trading has only ever been a hobby.

What i am not suggesting is that Dion can't trade, i don't know.
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Old May 27, 2011, 3:44pm   #32
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Random thoughts...

SIM trading is useful, but has limitations. The length of time or number of trades is insufficient to determine when it is time to move on to small money trading. Understanding the your goals and limitations of SIM trading will give you the most useful way of determining when it is time to move on. Write down the goals. When you have achieved them in SIM trading move on to small money trading.

SIM trading's relation to real trading regarding psychology is largely tied to the personality of the trader. Those who are highly competitive, especially with themselves, will feel the same emotions when SIM trading and real money trading. They will succumb to the same weaknesses and make many of the same mistakes. Those that do not treat it seriously are wasting there time. SIM is an opportunity to learn, not a certainty of learning.

Pilot training is a wonderful analogy. Those who take flying SIM seriously are easily identified by their heart rate and perspiration during simulation and their level of exhaustion afterwards. (I am a private pilot) SIM does not replace flying the real equipment, but it is a realistic, economic and effective step in the training process.
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Old May 27, 2011, 4:00pm   #33
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
Random thoughts...

SIM trading is useful, but has limitations. The length of time or number of trades is insufficient to determine when it is time to move on to small money trading. Understanding the your goals and limitations of SIM trading will give you the most useful way of determining when it is time to move on. Write down the goals. When you have achieved them in SIM trading move on to small money trading.

SIM trading's relation to real trading regarding psychology is largely tied to the personality of the trader. Those who are highly competitive, especially with themselves, will feel the same emotions when SIM trading and real money trading. They will succumb to the same weaknesses and make many of the same mistakes. Those that do not treat it seriously are wasting there time. SIM is an opportunity to learn, not a certainty of learning.

Pilot training is a wonderful analogy. Those who take flying SIM seriously are easily identified by their heart rate and perspiration during simulation and their level of exhaustion afterwards. (I am a private pilot) SIM does not replace flying the real equipment, but it is a realistic, economic and effective step in the training process.

Howard, i totally agree with you, even SIM trading can mean pressure under some circumstances.
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Old May 27, 2011, 8:41pm   #34
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

By trading on a demo account for any longer than the amount of time it will take you to get comfortable with the platform, is in my opinion a waste of time and hinders progress and development.

Ultimately it is a function of ones means and trading conditions. Considering you can open a micro account and trade for real from unit sizes of one, the argument for extended virtual trading is just too cheap for my liking.
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Old May 27, 2011, 8:53pm   #35
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

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Originally Posted by jiggly View Post
By trading on a demo account for any longer than the amount of time it will take you to get comfortable with the platform, is in my opinion a waste of time and hinders progress and development.

Ultimately it is a function of ones means and trading conditions. Considering you can open a micro account and trade for real from unit sizes of one, the argument for extended virtual trading is just too cheap for my liking.

Trader_Dante said exactly the same thing to his manager at Futex. He's a f*kin traffic warden now.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:40pm   #36
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

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Originally Posted by DionysusToast View Post
There is no disinformation. You learn NOTHING trading SIM.

You will learn through the experience of putting a little money on the line.

As for casinos - the market is one. If you haven't figured that out, you have a very long way top go indeed.
Your mentally is all wrong for trading... at least if you want to make money. The difference between a casino and trading is that although there is always an element of luck involved, the odds are in your favour if you know what you are doing trading whilst the odds are against you when you play in the casino.

If you think the market is a casino, then you should also believe your expected returns would be less than zero since the odds are against you. It would be better to go to a casino since you would probably enjoy it more than sitting in front of your computer screen to get your gambling fix.

It is fine to get your gambling fix from trading. I am sure there are a lot of gamblers that are interested in trading for that reason. I just think there are many more that want to learn to make money and learn to trade seriously.
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Old May 28, 2011, 3:34am   #37
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

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Originally Posted by forker View Post
The problem with this statement is that it is missing a tangible piece of information. I totally agree with you that learning skills from a seasoned trader can only do ones education merit. However if the extent of that information is nothing more than "simulation doesn't teach one how to trade" then I have to admit I feel kind of sorry for them. Only morons spend money on education they can get for free.
I'm talking about people who trade for a living and who don't charge to have a chat. If most people reached out through friends, family & extended social network, I reckon most could find a number of people in the industry or running an operation from home.



Quote:
Originally Posted by forker View Post
Only fools assume without context. Here you assume I don't trade live by suggesting I should try when in reality, I am nothing more than an avatar in your eyes. How could you know anything about me if we haven't spoken face to face? You make out that using simulations to learn is foolish yet it is a widely adopted learning medium in just about very industry in the world! How is trading any different?

Tell me DT, if your so called pro trader buddies tell you that the only way to be a trader is to wear a pair of budgie smugglers will you be buying your pair at primark?
Very cute statements at the end there Forker.

There is a lot in the world of trading that is 'widely adopted' and yet most people lose money. The well-worn path isn't the only one to take.

Like I say - you can trade for pennies - literally risking $2 or $3 per trade. Virtually riskless trading but still more than enough to stop you from doing dumbass things. For instance, if you risk $2 or $3 per trade and end up chasing the market all day, you could potentially lose $100 and you may well end up licking your wounds over that experience. It's the loss of the money that is important there. If you did the same thing on SIM, it would mean nothing to you at all.
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Old May 28, 2011, 3:46am   #38
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

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Originally Posted by TimYoung View Post
Your mentally is all wrong for trading... at least if you want to make money. The difference between a casino and trading is that although there is always an element of luck involved, the odds are in your favour if you know what you are doing trading whilst the odds are against you when you play in the casino.
Tim - I am making money so my mentality must be OK. I don't think there's a personality type that's more suited to markets. I know a trader who is probably bi-polar with the sh1t fits he throws and I know other guys that are virtually horizontal they are so relaxed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimYoung View Post
If you think the market is a casino, then you should also believe your expected returns would be less than zero since the odds are against you. It would be better to go to a casino since you would probably enjoy it more than sitting in front of your computer screen to get your gambling fix..
The market is a casino. There is a fixed amount of money goes into it and an almost infinite amount of people chasing that same amount of money hoping to profit handsomely. There are a lot of games played in the market to shake people out. The fact that the market is a casino is a benefit once you figure out how weak hands get shaken out and how to bet with the house.

This has nothing to do with a gambling fix. Still, I would be lying if I said there wasn't challenge and excitement in trading. There is a sense of achievement pulling money out of the market when there is such intense competition. Call this a 'fix' if you like but I do not see any need to be a 'zen like trading master' when trading. That whole concept is a myth as far as I can see.

Quote:
It is fine to get your gambling fix from trading. I am sure there are a lot of gamblers that are interested in trading for that reason. I just think there are many more that want to learn to make money and learn to trade seriously.
Well - you need to meet more traders because you have an image of them that doesn't quite fit the bill in my opinion.

You can't be something you are not. You cannot take the emotion out of trading. Getting p!ssed off and getting excited is totally normal. Just the other day the missus looked at me - I'm standing behind my office chair - arms spread wide saying "up,up,up, up" as the 6E was a couple of ticks from my target. Finally there was "YES!" and she shook her head and went back to her Cher DVD. Ain't nothing wrong with this.

Why do you think those bank guys were getting busted having 3 ways with lap dancers in the back of limos? Because they are zen like trading masters? Shouldn't they have been at home reading Alexander Elder instead of snorting coke of some hookers thigh?

It's funny that we talk about how serious we need to be when the guys consitently taking our money off use are using it to buy drugs and screw lapdancers. Apparently the guys at Goldman are total animals on their nights out & they never have a losing day.
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Old May 28, 2011, 4:42am   #39
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggly View Post
By trading on a demo account for any longer than the amount of time it will take you to get comfortable with the platform, is in my opinion a waste of time and hinders progress and development.

Ultimately it is a function of ones means and trading conditions. Considering you can open a micro account and trade for real from unit sizes of one, the argument for extended virtual trading is just too cheap for my liking.
In my experience, this is a very limited view of the benefits of SIM trading. Learning the operational tools of a new platform are certainly the first use of SIM trading. However, I also use it when I am about to start using a new strategy. Every strategy has its trading rhythms and time requirements. When these differ significantly from the strategies currently in use, I find it helpful to prototype it using SIM trading. Once I am comfortable with my ability to trade the new strategy and no surprises have popped up (unexplained losses) I move to small money trading. I may stay in small money trading for some time until my results either match my expectations or I am forced to redesign my strategy and go back to SIM trading. Only after meeting my expectations do I move to serious money for that strategy.

The trick is to understand the limits of SIM trading in evaluating a specific strategy. Even with those limits, I have frequently found SIM trading saved me from huge blunders. Worse, when I did not SIM a change of my rules for a long established strategy, I got burned with serious money. I hope I learned my lesson. We'll see.
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Old May 28, 2011, 4:48am   #40
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

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Originally Posted by DionysusToast View Post
Like I say - you can trade for pennies - literally risking $2 or $3 per trade. Virtually riskless trading but still more than enough to stop you from doing dumbass things. For instance, if you risk $2 or $3 per trade and end up chasing the market all day, you could potentially lose $100 and you may well end up licking your wounds over that experience. It's the loss of the money that is important there. If you did the same thing on SIM, it would mean nothing to you at all.
Not all trading strategies risk only pennies even with small money trading. SIM is a good value here taking cost and time into account.
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Old May 28, 2011, 4:52am   #41
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Agreed HC - if you were buying CL Futures Options contracts then you'd be risking a few thousand dollars per contract normally.

Still - that's a pretty niche area. Most here are taking directional trades, in which case there is usually an alternative.
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Old May 28, 2011, 4:54am   #42
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimYoung View Post
Your mentally is all wrong for trading... at least if you want to make money. The difference between a casino and trading is that although there is always an element of luck involved, the odds are in your favour if you know what you are doing trading whilst the odds are against you when you play in the casino.

If you think the market is a casino, then you should also believe your expected returns would be less than zero since the odds are against you. It would be better to go to a casino since you would probably enjoy it more than sitting in front of your computer screen to get your gambling fix.

It is fine to get your gambling fix from trading. I am sure there are a lot of gamblers that are interested in trading for that reason. I just think there are many more that want to learn to make money and learn to trade seriously.
You would do well to review DT's debating tactics before taking him on here by reading some of the threads where he weights in heavily. You have some good points to make, but so far you only brought a knife to a gun fight. Just saying.
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Old May 28, 2011, 5:08am   #43
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

BTW - Here is the competition. Those serious, focused people working for banks making the money day in, day out. Taking it off Joe Retail trader.

These guys MUST be super focused, super dedicated, go to be early, study religiously to take away Joe Retails money all the time.

Quote:
A famous London strip club was raided and shut down after a two-month investigation by the city's police "vice squad" found that bankers had been paying almost $1,400 for threesomes in a stretch limo, the Sun reported.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/londo...#ixzz1NcFeyhEQ
Truth be told, I was SIM trading and getting nowhere. The advice I got from a number of people was something along the lines of "stop wasting your time with that crap, it bears no relevance to actual trading".

Still - as a day trader I rely on the following things:
- buying when selling runs out of steam. This is a horrible, counter-intuitive thing to do - buying when a lot of people are selling. It takes real effort to hit the button.
- not hesitating when an opportunity appears. That means reacting right there & then otherwise you end with a poor entry.
- absolutely not chasing a missed trade when it starts to work out.
- living with uncertainty at the point of entry, the more uncertain the better the profit potential (confirmation by it's nature worsens your price).
- passing on trades that don't 'feel' right.

Now - if you are a moving average crossover guy with a totally technical entry and no discretion whatsoever. Then I can see how SIM might help, although you won't actually make any money that way.

If however, you trade similar to me, then SIM is irrelevant. Without money on the line, taking the above decisions and indeed having good 'feel' is totally different from when money is at stake. I do not know why, it just is. As trading is a game of uncertainty you have to learn to trade that uncertainty with something at stake which is what you don't have with SIM. Of course, with daytrading, actual fills are very different on SIM and live. This alone makes SIM for daytrading invalid.

Also - in terms of discipline, people have a tendency to fool themselves. You can reset a SIM account but you can't reset a micro account. You can flaunt your rules in SIM trading without pain. We all break our rules but on SIM you can just write off the experience. With real money at stake, it's something you don't want to repeat.

Micro trading is an investment in your future. If you are not willing to make that small investment, then how seriously are you really taking the learning process?
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Old May 28, 2011, 1:23pm   #44
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DT, you are giving away some clues about your personality as a trader.

To open and close a trade is a function of mouse clicks. I think we cam both agree there is no skill required there. Applying ones edge to ascertain a trade requires recognition of that edge and experience to best execute that edge. I think we can all agree that one doesn't need capital in the decision process of applying an edge.
Managing a trade is a slightly different ball game in that there is a tug of war internally between greed and logic. The difference between live and simulation in this area is a higher level of emotions are at play that otherwise wouldn't be felt in sim, although there are personality types out there that are functionally the same on both.
That beige said, if emotions were removed then only logic would remain. Agreed?
What factor contributes emotions to trading? For some it's competitiveness, for others it's money, and of course not forgetting the poor souls where it's both.

This is a rather simplified view of trading in a nutshell but what stands out to me is that there is no where in the process where physical money contributes anything but emotions.

When you state that simulation is nothing like live I would agree with you in that there is an emotional factor that is attributed to everyone when real money is on the line. However, for the purpose of learning an edge, gaining experience in the market, and teaching ones brain the processes involved; sim trading is different only by a function of emotions.
Now which would you rather choose as a learning trader.

A) emotion free platform whereby you can find your edge?

B) spending money to find your edge with an unwelcome influence of additionally dealing with emotions.

Personally I like to simplify problems and removing emotions from an already difficult process is a logical and smart thing to do. In addition it doesn't cost any money be it £100 or £10000. I think we all know that learning to trade can take several years and small bankrolls can add up in the end. It took me 5 years before I found my way and I can't tell you how much money I lost because I learned on a live account.

I may seem to contradict myself by saying I support sim yet I learned on live. If I could do it again I would have gone sim all the way until I was ready. Today I use sim for testing out new strategies and it's serving the purpose well.
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Old May 28, 2011, 2:33pm   #45
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

"This is a rather simplified view of trading in a nutshell but what stands out to me is that there is no where in the process where physical money contributes anything but emotions. "

There's the rub.Logically, this is true. In reality it doesn't work like that.

I am speaking from personal experience, I wouldn't discuss it otherwise. Dropping SIM saw my trading improve exponentially. This was at the advice of a number of traders I aspire to be like. I took their advice & took the plunge. The difference between SIM & live is huge.

Trading is not a mechanical endeavour. It is more akin to a sport.

Look at it like Golf - a lot of people will play well on pressure free round out with friends. Put the same people in a competition and they will fall apart. This is the same with a lot of competitive endeavours.

Trading IS a competitive endeavour. Many people are competing for the same finite pot of cash.

I can't see how risking perhaps $50-$100 a week is an issue - it's much, much better than SIM trading yet is an insignificant amount. It gives you the feel and just the right amount of pain.

Trading live does not need to cost you a large %age of your capital. You just have to be savvy about it.
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