How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

This is a discussion on How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards. within the First Steps forums, part of the Reception category; The only argument people appear to have is learning self control to keep emotions out the decision making process. To ...

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Old May 27, 2011, 8:03am   #21
 
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The only argument people appear to have is learning self control to keep emotions out the decision making process. To me this is like telling the person to go fly an F16 without knowing anything about the controls or terminology. People have to learn about the market first. People have to find their way to consistently being correct more than they are wrong. Some of you think if people cant afford a few hundred bucks then what's the point. Why would anyone want to spend even a cent if they don't need to in the learning process. They might as well take that money, wipe their @rses with it and flush it away because they will lose it all while learning guaranteed. The only difference between demo and real functionally is execution.
Why is it so important to have real execution if the person is still trying to figure out their @rse from their face in this business. There is absolutely no point in going live until these people learn how to trade first. You can't run before you crawl. Such advice can be detrimental to new traders because the pain of being wrong and physically losing money in the process can only do more harm than good. Why add additional pain to the process of learning when it isn't necessary. How can anyone master their self control if they can't trade in the fist place. Execution isn't important in the early stages of development.
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Old May 27, 2011, 8:07am   #22
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Forker - you can trade forex for pennies on Oanda.

Even this is MUCH better than SIM trading. You need skin in the game.

Are you saying that SIM trading is more valuable than, for example, using an Oanda account, trading live money yet only risking $20 per week?

It's just lack of knowledge that makes people think there's nothing between SIM & full size, when there is.

There is really no point in doing ANY trading SIM/small size/full size if you have no clue what you are doing.
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Old May 27, 2011, 8:13am   #23
 
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I know you can risk small amounts but what's the point of throwing money away for nothing. Skin hasn't got anything to do with learning the techniques, the market, the cycles, the language. Until new traders have a clue what's going on and how to make money I just can't see the point in throwing any money at it even If it's nothing more than the cost of lunch. When these guys have something that reflects a virtual account growth then they can make the next step and grow a skin as you call it with some real cash
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Old May 27, 2011, 9:59am   #24
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Trading is engaging the market, SIM trading is not.

I am not sure of your level of experience Forker or how many professional full-time traders you associate with. I personally have a small number of professional traders I keep in touch with. They are unanimous in the opinion that SIM trading is detrimental in the journey to becoming profitable.

In fact, it was a professional, full time trader that dragged me away from SIM trading despite my own protests.

You do not need to bet the farm but you DO need to engage.

SIM trading is to real trading what masturbation is to making love to a beautiful lady. Not even really relevant. It's a different game entirely. It just keeps your hands occupied.

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Old May 27, 2011, 10:18am   #25
 
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Tell me something, what has a professional traders opinion got anything to do with learning how to trade unless that opinion is of a basis that discloses the art of trading? If a professional pilot said that simulation flying doesn't teach you to fly then what's the alternative? Climb into a real plane knowing not even how to start the engine. Is that going to make you a pilot or a suicidal crazy person!
Unless a professional trader gives a new starter the knowledge of trading, simply stating that simulation trading isn't a viable canvas to learn on is ludicrous.

Simulation learning medium is used in many areas of professional and educational facets of life. In universities they teach market students on simulation trading platforms. In the scientific world it's used to work data models in physics, earth studies, and in the medical world. In IT it's used in business intelligence and by training vendors. NASA and airlines use it for pilots and the USA airforce use it for predator drone training.

DT you mentioned that live trading engages the trader with the market. How does simulation trading not do the same. The trader is exposed to the same news, the same pricing, the same execution workflow, and the same PnL although it isn't real money. Now if you are referring to engaging the market in a psychological context then I completely agree but only on the basis that the trader knows what he is doing technically. Adding the psychological factor associated to risking money and handling losses is a completely different ball game to learning how to trade. They are not the same they are different. Mark douglas talks of this in his books as do many other trading psychology mentors. You cant get to point C without passing point B. In other words you cant learn the psychological aspect without knowing how to trade first.
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Old May 27, 2011, 11:57am   #26
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DionysusToast View Post
They are unanimous in the opinion that SIM trading is detrimental in the journey to becoming profitable.
Stop spreading disinformation.

You learn more and you become a worse trader? o_O

Sorry, if by SIM trading you get worse at trading, than trading might just not be for you.

If you need real money to 'engage' I think you should be looking for a casino instead.
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Old May 27, 2011, 12:30pm   #27
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

"Tell me something, what has a professional traders opinion got anything to do with learning how to trade unless that opinion is of a basis that discloses the art of trading?"

You may be surprised to learn that most professional traders were not born profitable. Communicating with such people is key in getting an understanding of what does/doesn't work in learning to trade.

In terms of how it is different. Try it and you will feel how it is different soon enough. Nothing will have you focused on trading like having some skin in the game. SIM certainly does not.

I can understand logical arguments that 'it's the same' - but still, in reality it is very different.
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Old May 27, 2011, 12:35pm   #28
 
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

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Stop spreading disinformation.

You learn more and you become a worse trader? o_O

Sorry, if by SIM trading you get worse at trading, than trading might just not be for you.

If you need real money to 'engage' I think you should be looking for a casino instead.
There is no disinformation. You learn NOTHING trading SIM.

You will learn through the experience of putting a little money on the line.

As for casinos - the market is one. If you haven't figured that out, you have a very long way top go indeed.
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Old May 27, 2011, 12:46pm   #29
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Re: How many trades should I make in a demo account before progressing onwards.

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Forget what anyone tells you about demo accounts being pointless. They are only pointless if you disregard the trading process. The only difference between a demo and real account is orders being filled. The end result of a demo account and a real account is a function of all the associated facets involved with orders being filled. That being said it isn't a problem or a show stopper in the learning process. It's a great medium to follow the trading process and live test strategies without risking any money.
A trader isn't going to make money if they haven't created a successful strategy period. Deal with the emotions associated to real money once you have a strategy that has proven over a 6 month time span.
Why learn to trade with the added stress of losing money. Finding your way to consistency is hard enough without additional stress.

Spot on. Only a wrongun would disagree with ya mate.
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Old May 27, 2011, 4:16pm   #30
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DionysusToast View Post

You may be surprised to learn that most professional traders were not born profitable. Communicating with such people is key in getting an understanding of what does/doesn't work in learning to trade.
The problem with this statement is that it is missing a tangible piece of information. I totally agree with you that learning skills from a seasoned trader can only do ones education merit. However if the extent of that information is nothing more than "simulation doesn't teach one how to trade" then I have to admit I feel kind of sorry for them. Only morons spend money on education they can get for free.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DionysusToast View Post

In terms of how it is different. Try it and you will feel how it is different soon enough. Nothing will have you focused on trading like having some skin in the game. SIM certainly does not.
Only fools assume without context. Here you assume I don't trade live by suggesting I should try when in reality, I am nothing more than an avatar in your eyes. How could you know anything about me if we haven't spoken face to face? You make out that using simulations to learn is foolish yet it is a widely adopted learning medium in just about very industry in the world! How is trading any different?

Tell me DT, if your so called pro trader buddies tell you that the only way to be a trader is to wear a pair of budgie smugglers will you be buying your pair at primark?
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