Is it really possible to make money in this trading lark?

This is a discussion on Is it really possible to make money in this trading lark? within the First Steps forums, part of the Reception category; Very interesting post again, Noah ... Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2 Most people find it easier to find a good momentum ...

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Old Oct 25, 2004, 12:27am   #211
Joined Aug 2004
Very interesting post again, Noah ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2
Most people find it easier to find a good momentum stock and play that over several days to weeks if not months.
Well, it depends on where you're coming from and what you're used to, I think. I daytrade for a living, quite successfully for 4 years now, and I find the idea of "swing-trading" (which, I think, is closer to what you're describing!) very difficult. And I'd feel really, really nervous about holding a position overnight! And I'd also feel a bit nervous about holding an individual stock at all (but that's just my ignorance and lack of education and preference for indices and forex, I admit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2
What I was ref. to on the shorting is not shorting stocks intraday.
Ah, ok ... misunderstood you there. I was just curious why and how you apparently differentiated between 52-week highs and 52-week lows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2
Most guys don't have the chance to start with 25k so they can use margin day trading.
Well, I actually started with a little bit less than that, but I take your point, and I concede that I got a bit lucky in the first instance before I really knew what I was doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2
I don't know of any day traders that started with $500 and made it in the market.
Fair comment, and neither do I, but that doesn't prove that trading stocks over a longer period is any better or easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2
I beleive a day trader that is good can double there money every year.
No argument from me on this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2
I would assume most people rather focus on 5-6 stocks a year and make the same money as someone who trades 20 times a month or even more.
Well, it depends on where you're coming from and what you know how to do ... if I thought for a moment that I could equal my income and capital growth by doing that, I'd be the first in the queue to learn. But as it is, I've found something else that seems to suit me well instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2
I would honestly like to know all the day traders on this board who average 300% a year or more.
The ones who haven't been driven away yet by the doommongers, you mean? I'm not trying to imply that you're one of them, by the way. But as someone wisely said higher up this thread, most of the successful ones do tend to stay out of the way of these discussions. When I first started posting here, I was roundly abused by two or three people who stated categorically that it's not possible to make a living (a) from spreadbetting or (b) from intraday trading! I'm not willing to show these people my trading records (why on earth would I? I'd get no satisfaction at all from proving them wrong, and I'd rather be making a living and building up my fund) so then they accuse you of "running away", of course, because what actually matters to them is Being Right, not making money.

Most of us don't bother to debate it with them. You can understand that, I think? Their problem, whatever it is, is not my problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahedwinbeach2
Day trading is almost like being a liberal.
Actually I'm just trying to support my family. Liberals are allowed to do that too, you know.

Last edited by Roberto; Oct 25, 2004 at 12:33am.
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 12:29am   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LION63
Roberto, Accepted that most fund managers do not beat the market due to restrictions placed on the types of trades they can execute but what about the Hedge Funds? Recently, it has been shown that the majority do not beat the benchmarks that they follow and they tend to have few or no restrictions. Based on that, would it not be fair to say that they are not as good as they should be?
It would indeed.
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 1:59am   #213
 
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The question is it possible to make money..........?

Of course the answer is yes, its like saying is it possible to make money in the property market?
In fact the original question is a contradiction of terms. The word trading implies a 'market' and by definition has the ability to make or lose money.

To make money you have to bring 3 things to the table. Without them you will (eventually) lose:

PERSISTENCE
DISCIPLINE
AN EDGE
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Last edited by GotGold; Oct 25, 2004 at 2:37am.
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 2:41am   #214
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Which of the three is more important? Would an individual be able to succeed with only two of the three?
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 4:09am   #215
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LOL at Roberto on the liberal response. Yes your allowed to make money too lol. This thread is obviously biased and if your a person like me who buys and holds till his stop touches then your gonna agree. If you are a day trader your gonna have your own views. If you can make money doing either one then I would say it doesn't matter what someone else does. I won't sit here and say you can't make money daytrading because I have made some money in the past day trading. My problem is I have a day job lol. I can't do day trading for that so I have to buy and hold stocks and put a stop loss order in to prevent losses in case it falls. I actually get to sleep at night if I have a stop loss on the stock AND my stock is technically sound. I will not buy and hold stocks with wish wash patterns or poor volume. The only stocks I find attractive are stocks like TASR back when it was making its rise. Notice the large volume on up days and mild volume on down days. That is the stocks I look for. Day trading is actually fun to me but man I can't handle the stress. For some reason I get seriously stressed out day trading. It is one of those things you have to look at the screen all freaking day. That is coming from books I have read on the subject. If any of you that day trade don't do that correct me. By the way Roberto on the $500 starting capital comment, that comes from William Oneil in his book. He lead a class and they started with $500 and turned it to some 25k or something. I forgot what it was. I am just curious you guys that day trade what do you actually day trade with. I don't see being able to day trade with less than $10,000 and make money. Besides that the rules on the NASDAQ prevent me from doing that. I have to have 25k.
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 4:13am   #216
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By the way I am only 22 years old and don't know jack lol. I have been trading stocks for about 4 years now. I have seriously been trading stocks for 2 years(learning for real that is). I started reading books my first being Darvas book and that is what inspired me to turn it on. Since then its been trial and error and now I am at the point where I feel very confident I will someday get there. Someday meaning when we have a bull market or bear market. I need a market that is normal. My stocks breakout and then fall right back. I have found some good shorts though I am considering. I am not biased on either side because I am not going to be a fool. If its a bad market obviously I will go with the tide. The trend is your friend as someone else said in this post.
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 7:04am   #217
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Quote:
It is one of those things you have to look at the screen all freaking day
Well I certainly dont and on most days it is only about 2 hours maximum. I have things set up that mean I am alerted to setups that "may" become a trade and it is only when I get alerted that I look at the screen and then do a number of checks to confirm the trade or otherwise.


Paul
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 12:32pm   #218
 
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No, you need each of the 3.

The 'edge' of course is the elusive one.
The Edge: The need to do something which makes us a better trader than the next person.

EXAMPLE
I went to a seminar by BO YODER, he said his edge was fading classic technical action. He reasons that so many players are following classic chart set ups and patterns that they become untradable. He moves one step beyond and anticipates where the technical players are positioned at any time. For example, in a rectangular consolidation, he looks for a failed breakout which triggers stops placed in the 'classic' location which is just out side the range. The triggering of the stops fuels an accelerating move in the opposite direction to the breakout.
Very stylish I'm sure you will agree. Thats just a brief example. His 'edge' was simply to be ahead of the herd in his thought process.

In summary, there has got to be at least aspect of you trading which is 'better'. Remember the herd always loses.

Footballers need persistence, discipline and an edge (otherwise known as talent). Traders are the same.

SOME DIFFERENT TYPES OF EDGE

Successful operation of a good system
Vast amounts of 'sleeves up' experience
Ahead of the herd tech analysis
Superior execution costs
Ability to change with the market (quickly and effectively)
Impeccable money management
Superior risk, reward calculations.
Mastery at a specific strategy (eg 'opening range break-outs')

The list goes on and on of course..........
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Last edited by GotGold; Oct 25, 2004 at 12:39pm.
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 1:16pm   #219
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Noah ... I completely agree that you'd need a minimum of $10,000 to get anywhere realistic with daytrading (and preferably quite a bit more). I believe that in this game (or "in this lark" as the original poster put it!) being 22 years old is probably a great advantage. I was twice your present age when I started, and I certainly wished I'd become interested in trading 22 years earlier!

You say that you know jack, and don't we all? But in my view the ones who _know_ that they know jack are going to be much better off in the long run than the ones who think they know it all already and want to Be Right about all of it all the time. Ego is perhaps the trader's worst enemy.

You've clearly taught yourself something that's profitable, steady and sensible, and I wish you every possible good fortune with it in the future.

I enjoy reading your posts here. You have (among other things) made me wonder how I'd have got on if I'd come at it from a different angle and developed a different style.

When I started, I also had a "day job" which I naively planned to give up after a year or so. Not surprisingly it took me more like 3 years or so before I'd finished off all my other work.

To me, the ability to be self-employed and work from home at hours that suit me is almost as important as the money. But different people have different motivations for trading.
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Old Oct 25, 2004, 2:36pm   #220
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Hey Roberto I agree with the working for yourself part. That is what I long for the most. I work 65 hours a week split between two jobs. I work at GNC during the day and go move boxes at Fedex at nights. It is pretty crappy. I believe we are all learning constantly because the market changes constantly. Just when you think you figured it out you haven't. I think a lot of folks want bragging rights more than the money or something? Bragging rights will not support my family so I rather humble myself and make the money. One day I will probably day trade when I have money to lose. It has taken me a while now to learn to trade the way I do which isn't swing trading. It sounds that way but I buy only new 52 week highs. I think most swing traders purchase stocks on dips? Day trading will take me just as long as it has now to get good at this current trading style. Plus it will be harder to switch to it from my current buy and hold positions. I am fortunate to be only 22 learning this stuff. I started studying the market in high school and got interested in it because I saw the potential to make real money without having to go work for someone my entire life. These kids all planned on going to college etc and getting out to go work for someone. Well I hate working for other people lol. My current jobs suck and dont pay a lot but I am saving $400 a month and putting that in the market despite having a child and wife to take care of. So basically I have learned good money management skills in my life so young. Now the reason for that is is because I got myself in 22k credit card debt and 8k student loan debt. Now that is enough to make anyone mad. I guess I learned my lesson the hard way. It was almost like when I first started trading I lost my entire capital on pink sheet stocks. That was my first lesson in stocks lol. It is funny how people learn the hard way. But the pros become pros because they can learn from there mistakes and not keep repeating them. I decided to do what the pros do and analyze my trades. I wanted to know what I was doing wrong. That is how I got to where I am now. I beleive anyone can win with a system if they will learn from what they are doing wrong. You can win as a day trader if you learn from what you did wrong. I do find the candlestick patterns interesting and bought a book on day trading. It was informative. I just don't have enough capital to day trade with plus I am not willing to dip into that right now until I have plenty of money to dabble with and lose just in case. Those initial dollars are like tuition in the market. I don't have tuition money right now lol. Take care guys.
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Old Oct 27, 2004, 11:36am   #221
 
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noahedwinbeach2 wrote :

"Day trading is ignorant with any cash amount. Day trading requires total luck. You can't time the market in minutes. Like a Casino "

thanks mate , don't take this personally but that's your opinion only . I am certainly not ignorant with my cash and have been day-trading for years and do pretty well thank you very much . And not one day I spend in the office is like a trip to the casino even when I lose .

BTW this thread has been very amusing to read at times when the Ftse has been doing nada , thanks guys

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Old Oct 27, 2004, 11:57am   #222
 
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Noah

I found your post very interesting and in a way, quite humbling. You are striving for the 'dream' and I hope that you achieve it.
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Old Oct 27, 2004, 12:02pm   #223
 
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Roberto wrote :

"To me, the ability to be self-employed and work from home at hours that suit me is almost as important as the money. But different people have different motivations for trading."

As it is for me . Making money is great don't get me wrong and that is probably the No1 reason ( IMO ) people 'become' traders, but the flexibility of not having a boss and the fact that you can work as hard ( or not ) as you want is very liberating .

As to my previous post , don't get me wrong I respect traders who 'work' with all time frames and i sure wish I could turn £500 into 2 MILL , I may even give it all up , hehe
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Old Oct 27, 2004, 8:58pm   #224
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It is all about believing, dedication, patience and the willingness to learn. An individual that goes in search of a dream in this manner will sooner or later find what they are looking for. On the other hand, ...'nothing comes to sleepers but a dream'.
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Old Oct 28, 2004, 6:22am   #225
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"It is all about believing, dedication, patience and the willingness to learn"....AND knowing when the aforementioned is not just plain random luck !
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