Trader training/learning

Hi,
New to the site and to trading. Apologies if this has been covered a million and one times, which Im sure it has.
Head is already spinning at the amount of info out there. Trying to sift through the 99% of guff to get to the 1% of worthwhile genuine info. Everybody is selling something!
Looking to learn, what is the best training out there? So many courses offering the world with little substance. Seen plenty like Knowledge to Action with Greg Secker and Insight with Stu Whisson. Apparently K2A cant really be mentioned on this site anymore due to the threat of legal action (or so I read) but have read a bit about Stu. He seems ok, genuine if not the best content (or so they say). I know there are many others. Who, if any, are worth looking into?
Am I better off learning through books and courses such as those through BPP and the Securities Institue? While theoretical knowledge is great, trading in particular seems like something that needs to be learned in practice. Are there any genuine traders out there who maybe have institutional experience that coach 1 to 1?
Any ideas or suggestions would be most welcome, especially neutral or independent views.
Thanks
B

bstevenson said:

Hi,
New to the site and to trading. Apologies if this has been covered a million and one times, which Im sure it has.
Head is already spinning at the amount of info out there. Trying to sift through the 99% of guff to get to the 1% of worthwhile genuine info. Everybody is selling something!
Looking to learn, what is the best training out there? So many courses offering the world with little substance. Seen plenty like Knowledge to Action with Greg Secker and Insight with Stu Whisson. Apparently K2A cant really be mentioned on this site anymore due to the threat of legal action (or so I read) but have read a bit about Stu. He seems ok, genuine if not the best content (or so they say). I know there are many others. Who, if any, are worth looking into?
Am I better off learning through books and courses such as those through BPP and the Securities Institue? While theoretical knowledge is great, trading in particular seems like something that needs to be learned in practice. Are there any genuine traders out there who maybe have institutional experience that coach 1 to 1?
Any ideas or suggestions would be most welcome, especially neutral or independent views.
Thanks
B

Click to expand...

Personally I dont know anyone who charges on this site or anywhere that I would be happy to recommend. There is very little that can be taught that you cant read about on this site.At the end of the day you need to find a consistant entry point and dont deviate from that,add in money management and discipline and youve cracked it.

I believe that trading is all about learning and creating good habits... so that when you see your set up... you take it without even thinking about it... and are confident that the trade will go your way.

I believe not being greedy is key to less stressful trading... when a trade has gone in your favor 3-5 ticks ... automatically lock in 1 or 2 ticks profit... and keep your profit target to a less stressful target. (mine is about 4-6 ticks at a time.... a reachable goal... hell, 2 or 3 trades like that a day... will make my living comfortably!)

I think one of the most difficult aspects is knowing what to do once the trade starts going against you... "Do I get out with 4 or 6 or 8 ticks loss? Or, do I wait and HOPE that it returns closer to my entry point before exiting with the loss??"

This is up to you to decide...

Some professionals say... "If the trade goes against you 2 or 3 ticks... get out immediately, because it will most likely continue to go against you." This may not always be true tho... many times I've had it go against me 3-6 ticks... and go back my way... and I profit...

One professional I know who makes a great living trading says... "4 point (16 ticks) stop loss... no less... because of the volatility during trading day... Just make sure you get the swing or trend direction Right!" .... that works for him... and it works well... not to mention he's got his entry signals down to a science... and he shoots for the big winners... like no less than 3-4 point profits every time... yeah, he's good.

These are decisions you are going to have to make on your own - depending on your analysis and capital.

If you entered going in the direction, and close to the beginning of the trend or swing, then you can make bad mistakes on entry, and still get out with a profit on a trade... Tho it's mentally difficult to see the market 2-3 points against your trade. (I try to analyse the trend or swing direction by looking at higher time frames and the bigger picture.) I am always looking at 3 time frames at a time... and I use Tick Charts... not intra-day minute charts... but I imagine minute charts would work also.

One thing I've learned..... on nice up and down swinging between 3-4 points at a time (Like Thursday Sept. 2nd was)... is that when I think the market is going to just KEEP running (long or short) after a nice 4 point swing... that's when it Could to change direction... As difficult as it is to go opposite when I Feel Strongly that it's going to keep going long/short... that's when I usually come out ahead on a trade. (use your own discretion!)

Sometimes the market swings quickly up and down between 2-3 points...

...Unless it's going to be a long slow trending day... like today the emini S&P was.... long trend down to begin the day... then long trend up to end the day.

The tricky part is being able to spot the beginning and end of the moves in real time... be patient and not greedy... practice creating Good entry and exit Habits in simulation account before going live.

Hope this helps somehow!

There are some good courses out there; HOWEVER, if they don't match your personal risk profile, they may be a disaster for YOU. Know HOW u need to trade(time frame, risk aversion, expectations) before you spend money on ANY of them. I have a good friend(over 30 years) very successful trading, sold his methodology to thousands..........while his personal account grew, using the same strategies, he received phone calls every day, from people LOSING money.
The losers fell in a few categories:
1. Those whom were smarter than the method
2. Those who could not bear the level of loss in dollars before profit
3. Those whom became impatient and left the market with small wins.

I wouldn't pay for any training class. They prey on newbies. I started trading 6 years ago. I learned on my own, and from tid bits of info here and there.
A free site that is excellent for learning is Action forex. There are some good threads on this site that are good for learn a practical methodology to trade with-- 3 Ducks with Captain Currency, GBP/USD 123 with Pipmaster, EUR/USD Elliot Wave with Jah Dave, and Some of my trades and forecasts with Me.
Keep an open mind, ask questions, and don't let anyone get in your wallet. There is too much free stuff to learn by to worry about some scandulous paid training. Also, turn a deaf ear to all money managers.

bstevenson said:

Hi,
New to the site and to trading. Apologies if this has been covered a million and one times, which Im sure it has.
Head is already spinning at the amount of info out there. Trying to sift through the 99% of guff to get to the 1% of worthwhile genuine info. Everybody is selling something!
Looking to learn, what is the best training out there? So many courses offering the world with little substance. Seen plenty like Knowledge to Action with Greg Secker and Insight with Stu Whisson. Apparently K2A cant really be mentioned on this site anymore due to the threat of legal action (or so I read) but have read a bit about Stu. He seems ok, genuine if not the best content (or so they say). I know there are many others. Who, if any, are worth looking into?
Am I better off learning through books and courses such as those through BPP and the Securities Institue? While theoretical knowledge is great, trading in particular seems like something that needs to be learned in practice. Are there any genuine traders out there who maybe have institutional experience that coach 1 to 1?
Any ideas or suggestions would be most welcome, especially neutral or independent views.
Thanks
B

Click to expand...

Hello everyone,

I am not sure if this is the right place for this message? If not, then can someone re-direct me. thank you.

I did some spread trading a few years ago and lost a lot of money - no reading, no research, no idea!

I gave up. I started doing it again this April by accident. My cousin began and tempted me back. I have again lost a lot of money.

I decided before I had lost all my money to speak to a trader friend of mine who gave me titles of some books to read. One of them being 'Turtle trading'.

Having read that book, I have tried Richard Dennis' theory on a demo account for a month now. I have seen 100% profit wiped away but that is to be expected in his trend following theory. Does anyone else use his methods? I would like to ask a couple of questions.

Anyway, I think I will probably go with his theory as it makes complete sense. I was wondering if anyone knew of a site and/or software (free) that allows you to keep opening, high, low and closing prices for various instruments like commodities, Forex, indices and individual stocks, the lot really.

I am not a novice at trading but am in making money. Any help appreciated.
thanks

At the end of the day you need to find a consistant entry point and dont deviate from that,add in money management and discipline and youve cracked it.

this is written above and if there is one sentence that you write down and look at all the time it's this.

the above trump everything else. which entry or how to manage your money are personal to you and your lifestyle. i get in and out by 10am in the main. i often trade past this but i'm sure it's counterproductive. my aim for the rest of this year is to stop at 10am.

Jason, respectfully, you're not making any sense. One thing you got right in trading the Turtle theory was you demo traded it. If you are going to lose money, losing demo money is the only way to go. This is the part that makes no sense, or maybe I'm confused. How could you like a theory, or base a judgment on liking it when you have already proven to yourself that it fails? I'm asking you to please help me get around that part of it first.
Next, please promise yourself to never trade with live money until you have a sound methodology to trade by, you understand solid marginign principles, and you have the right mindset to appraoch the markets with. If not, then your pattern of continual losing will continue. It's not an opinion, just a fact.
Also, never let anyone convince you until you are convinced you are ready to trade. Tell your cousin to make his decisions for himself. You are not jumping in until you are ready.
Do not pressure yourself to get back in the markets. The only goal, at this point, you should have in developing a methodology to trade by, and then won't take 1 day, 1 week, or even 1 month. But, after it is developed, imagine! You will have the rest of your life to reap form the hard work you put into it.

jason31 said:

Hello everyone,

I am not sure if this is the right place for this message? If not, then can someone re-direct me. thank you.

I did some spread trading a few years ago and lost a lot of money - no reading, no research, no idea!

I gave up. I started doing it again this April by accident. My cousin began and tempted me back. I have again lost a lot of money.

I decided before I had lost all my money to speak to a trader friend of mine who gave me titles of some books to read. One of them being 'Turtle trading'.

Having read that book, I have tried Richard Dennis' theory on a demo account for a month now. I have seen 100% profit wiped away but that is to be expected in his trend following theory. Does anyone else use his methods? I would like to ask a couple of questions.

Anyway, I think I will probably go with his theory as it makes complete sense. I was wondering if anyone knew of a site and/or software (free) that allows you to keep opening, high, low and closing prices for various instruments like commodities, Forex, indices and individual stocks, the lot really.

I am not a novice at trading but am in making money. Any help appreciated.
thanks

Click to expand...

Those 3 M's do trump everything else, but getting out at 10:00 is also personal.

StephenMcCreedy said:

At the end of the day you need to find a consistant entry point and dont deviate from that,add in money management and discipline and youve cracked it.

this is written above and if there is one sentence that you write down and look at all the time it's this.

the above trump everything else. which entry or how to manage your money are personal to you and your lifestyle. i get in and out by 10am in the main. i often trade past this but i'm sure it's counterproductive. my aim for the rest of this year is to stop at 10am.

Click to expand...

yes, this is my point. trading is personal beyond a few facts. learn those facts and the rest make your own.

4xpipcounter said:

Jason, respectfully, you're not making any sense. One thing you got right in trading the Turtle theory was you demo traded it. If you are going to lose money, losing demo money is the only way to go. This is the part that makes no sense, or maybe I'm confused. How could you like a theory, or base a judgment on liking it when you have already proven to yourself that it fails? I'm asking you to please help me get around that part of it first.
Next, please promise yourself to never trade with live money until you have a sound methodology to trade by, you understand solid marginign principles, and you have the right mindset to appraoch the markets with. If not, then your pattern of continual losing will continue. It's not an opinion, just a fact.
Also, never let anyone convince you until you are convinced you are ready to trade. Tell your cousin to make his decisions for himself. You are not jumping in until you are ready.
Do not pressure yourself to get back in the markets. The only goal, at this point, you should have in developing a methodology to trade by, and then won't take 1 day, 1 week, or even 1 month. But, after it is developed, imagine! You will have the rest of your life to reap form the hard work you put into it.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the prompt reply. I am sorry if I did not make sense. I was trying not to make my post too long but did so anyway.
Rather than trying to predict the bottom or top of a market so you can buy low and sell high - trend trading goes with the trend.
The book demonstrates that it does work. I will give you the example of Nymex oil. It's recent high has been around $83. Low - $75. So when it broke through $75 I went short like the theory states. As it moved down at the end of each day I moved my stop accordingly. My stop was 300 points away. It went as low as $70.24. My stop was moved to $74.00 the day before. Anyway, it started to go up and my stop was triggered. It then went as high as $76? and has come down again. So I could have had 450 points profit but only got 100 points. The point is that you have to take small profit/losses and wait to catch the big trends. The problem with this at this time for me is that I do not have enough money to take the 'small' losses. Incidentally, how much do you think one should put in to trade successfully?
I really believe that it will work but need to get historical prices for the commodities. I can get the indices and Forex from yahoo. Any ideas? This is so that I can work out my stops.
I hope this makes sense? Any advise welcome.
Thanks again.

Also, my cousin has no influence on my trading.
Does anyone follow Forex2profits tips? They have been pretty bad this week so far. Any tipsters on this site that can actually make me a bit of capital?

I can. Give me a grand and I'll make you a millionaire

scose-no-doubt said:

I can. Give me a grand and I'll make you a millionaire

Click to expand...

What time frame? what do you trade and how?

Daily time frame. I trade extremely inconsistently but I'm sure the added pressure to perform brought on by your down payment of a grand will sort me right out and have me piling the guilders smack dab into your bank account.

What're your bank details?

bstevenson said:

Hi,
Apparently K2A cant really be mentioned on this site anymore due to the threat of legal action (or so I read) but have read a bit about Stu. He seems ok, genuine if not the best content (or so they say). I know there are many others. Who, if any, are worth looking into?

Are there any genuine traders out there who maybe have institutional experience that coach 1 to 1?
Any ideas or suggestions would be most welcome, especially neutral or independent views.
Thanks
B

Click to expand...

How would anyone know if he is genuine? If he only repeats what is freely available on the internet then it will never be possible to evaluate him.

Assumption is a killer, never assume.

For example why do you think that someone with "institutional" experience would be worth listening to?

Most (institutional or pro traders, call them what you want) are able to profit from a privileged edge that allows them to use technology, news flows and incredibly low transaction costs that are not available to general retail traders.

Take them out of this environment, and they will struggle to make ends meat, unless they genuinely know about the markets and how they work .

There are lots of former "employees" at IBs and other financial institutions that get out of this business as soon as they leave their employment. Why? This is because they dont know much beyond the edge that they have been taught and had access to.

There will be the odd ones that just want to change career, but most cant hack private trading.

Actually there is a thread on the forum that has a documentary that covers some of these issues.

All i will say is be very careful who you listen to, and never assume anything.

jason31 said:

Thanks for the prompt reply. I am sorry if I did not make sense. I was trying not to make my post too long but did so anyway.
Rather than trying to predict the bottom or top of a market so you can buy low and sell high - trend trading goes with the trend.
The book demonstrates that it does work. I will give you the example of Nymex oil. It's recent high has been around $83. Low - $75. So when it broke through $75 I went short like the theory states. As it moved down at the end of each day I moved my stop accordingly. My stop was 300 points away. It went as low as $70.24. My stop was moved to $74.00 the day before. Anyway, it started to go up and my stop was triggered. It then went as high as $76? and has come down again. So I could have had 450 points profit but only got 100 points. The point is that you have to take small profit/losses and wait to catch the big trends. The problem with this at this time for me is that I do not have enough money to take the 'small' losses. Incidentally, how much do you think one should put in to trade successfully?
I really believe that it will work but need to get historical prices for the commodities. I can get the indices and Forex from yahoo. Any ideas? This is so that I can work out my stops.
I hope this makes sense? Any advise welcome.
Thanks again.

Click to expand...

The difference between yourself and Richard Dennis is the amount of capital traded. There are reasons why he traded (past tense) this system the way he did. You on the other hand, are at a great advantage in comparison to Mr Dennis as you wont move the market when you liquidate your position.

Letting 450 points slip is criminal, no ifs or buts about it. You are a trader and must develop ways to get out a lot sooner that the example you have given.

As traders we get paid for consistent profits. There are far better ways to go about this business than a turtle following system. Backtesting to find ways to curb fit results so that you develop confidence is not the way forward.

Do some background research on Mr Dennis:smart:

He may not be the hero/super trader that is represented in that famous book.

wallstreetwarrior87 said:

The difference between yourself and Richard Dennis is the amount of capital traded. There are reasons why he traded (past tense) this system the way he did. You on the other hand, are at a great advantage in comparison to Mr Dennis as you wont move the market when you liquidate your position.

Letting 450 points slip is criminal, no ifs or buts about it. You are a trader and must develop ways to get out a lot sooner that the example you have given.

As traders we get paid for consistent profits. There are far better ways to go about this business than a turtle following system. Backtesting to find ways to curb fit results so that you develop confidence is not the way forward.

Do some background research on Mr Dennis:smart:

He may not be the hero/super trader that is represented in that famous book.

Click to expand...

I am really stuck in that case as I do not know what method to test and then follow...? any ideas?

4xpipcounter said:

Jason, respectfully, you're not making any sense. One thing you got right in trading the Turtle theory was you demo traded it. If you are going to lose money, losing demo money is the only way to go.

Click to expand...

Pips, I'll disagree with you here because I think the best way to learn is to always play with REAL money but very small, perhaps risking £2 - £10 per trade.

The problem risking demo money is it just doesn't matter and that can cause people to learn without the proper discpline. Also, most demo accounts are far too large so people will be using say a $100k account but when they start trading with proper money their account might be £5,000 so they're going to be oput of sync.

The trick is anything is to lose a small amount of money for the first several months or even a year or 2 while you're learning. Then when done deposit proper money. The small money that will be (probably) lost is designed to keep you in the game and not get blown out.

Trouble is the majority of people want it all today and don't seem to realise this is a very tricky game which takes time to learn. That's the sole reason the conmen and sharlitans in this game can make good cash because they 'sell the dream' which people love to hear, ie

10 mins a day and you can earn 5% a month
use this little known secret to bag yourself an easy 30% return every year
Quit the rat race and spend more time with your loved ones

That's what people want, and they don't want the truth, ie

Are you willing to spend countless hours/days/weeks/months and even years without earning anything
Are you willing to put your mind through hell to get to the promised land
Are you willing to have sleepless nights because you think you'll never be able to turn an overall profit

Re Dennis, if you're willing to suffer from 50% drawdowns 2-4 times a decade then fine. Most aren't which is why it's impossible to trade. And the ones who think they can often stop trading when 50% down because they can't handle it anymore.

why do you think dennis traded investors money? Because he's no fool and realised that he couldn't take a 50% drawdown with his own money but if he mixed his cash with investors the drawdowns wouldn't be anywhere near 50% (for his personal cash).