Psychology Getting Started The Value of Coaching And The Difficulty in Finding One

Trader education has become a hot topic in recent years. Everywhere you look there is someone offering some course, seminar, training program, or whatever. Many are very pricey, and we can certainly debate the real value of quite a few. The proliferation of the products and such can't help but bring up some of the commonly debated topics related to whether traders can be taught or just have some innate talent which allows them to succeed. This article makes its own contribution to that discussion.

In the interest of openness, my personal view is that anyone can learn to trade effectively. By that, I mean we are all capable of trading toward a reasonable and rational set of goals and/or objectives determined by our own personal situation and means. Can everyone become George Soros, Paul Tudor Jones, or Warren Buffett? No, of course not. If we could all do that, those names wouldn't be as big as they are. Most people simply don't have the kind of resources traders like that have at their disposal. We all do, however, have the means to trade well within the scope of the money, time, risk tolerance, and other elements of our trading focus.

The starting point of effective trading, as with anything else in life, is education. There are certain things one needs to know in order to trade effectively. What those are vary a bit based on the market traded and instruments utilized, but there are some fundamentals. For example, all trading is based on the bid-offer mechanism at some level. There are numerous types of orders for entry in to positions and exit from them. There are exchange hours and instrument specifications. Brokerage commissions are a feature in most markets, and in all one needs to understand how profits and losses are determined. I think we can all agree that these are some of the basic building blocks of knowledge and understanding required to even contemplate trading.

At the next level we start getting more in to comprehension of the market action, its interpretation, and knowing how that translates in to profit opportunities and risk. On some level, trading requires analysis to make buy/sell decision - fundamental, technical, or quantitative. For the mechanical trader, that analysis is done through research in the development of one's trading system. For the discretionary trader it is more an on-going process. Likewise, some kind of risk management program is a requirement, regardless of trading style or analytic method.

All of this kind of core knowledge and understanding can, in my opinion, be learned from books, lectures, seminars, courses, etc. It is akin to earning a degree. In order to get that diploma, one must prove that certain things have been learned, skills gained. Once that is done, however, one's development becomes a more personal journey. It is the same thing in trading. There is a basic set of knowledge we must gain, but after that it is up to us to forge our own path in the markets as our own personal situation dictates.

Here is where things start getting muddled.

We must each determine our own course in trading, ideally based on a good assessment of the resources we have available to us. There are so many ways we can go, though. Everywhere there are people telling us that this path or that path is the one we should take. How are we to decide? Most of us end up stumbling along through a trial and error exploration of various systems, methods, techniques, and whatnot. Some of us find something that works. A great many do not, and quit in frustration, or broke. This is where having a coach or mentor can make a huge difference.

We need look no further than the world of athletics to see how important the role of a coach is to one's development. I happen to coach high level collegiate volleyball, so please permit me the indulgence of using that sport as an example.

There are certain physical attributes which can be strong determining factors for one's success in volleyball - height and jumping ability being two of them. As the saying goes, you can't teach height, and while a coach can help one jump higher, genetics goes a long way to determining what a given athlete can do in that regard. Being tall and able to jump high, however, does not guarantee success, and one can be quite good at the sport without being a top physical specimen. There is a lot more to volleyball, and that is where coaching comes in.

The role of the coach is basically that of facilitator. He or she aids the athlete in the development in their skills and the refinement of the game. For the novice that means a lot of teaching in regards to skill execution. When working with experienced players, it become much more a question of refinement and showing them how to apply what they know to the best effect given the situation at-hand.

Coaching or mentoring in trading should be the same thing. The advantages of having someone to oversee your development are many. There is the obvious element of teaching, as it is often assumed that the coach knows more about the markets and has more experience in them than the trainee. Possibly even more important, however, is the coach's role as external observer.

When I coach volleyball, I can see things a player is doing incorrectly that they cannot see because they lack the proper perspective. I can then tell them what they are doing wrong and help them correct it. A trading coach can do the same sort of thing.

At the same time, there is the mental and emotional element to coaching which is separate from the teaching one. Especially in the case of experienced athletes, it is often more a question of maintaining a proper level of motivation and a high degree of confidence to ensure peak performance than anything else. The same can be said of trading, where one's mental state often seriously influence one's performance just as it does in athletics.

The question of where one finds a coach or mentor is a difficult one. Brett Steenbarger (author of The Psychology of Trading and a contributor to this site on the topic of trader development) and I recently discussed this very topic. There are certainly a great many experienced traders out there willing to share what they know in one way or another. But are they really prepared to provide the guidance needed? Some may be good teachers - imparters of knowledge - but lacking in the ability to be a coach in the full sense of the word. Others might be great motivators, but perhaps do not have the breadth of knowledge and/or experience needed for the educational element of coaching.

There are two major obstacles to finding a good trading coach. First of all, it is the tendency of many people to look for someone who's had a great deal of success as a mentor. The problem with that is in a many cases those people are not well equipped to coach. It's something seen in athletics all the time. Look to the ranks of coaches in your favorite sport. How many of them can you point to and say he or she was a great player? Now consider how many were good players, but not superstars. There are way more of the latter in the coaching ranks than the former because the average players tend to have to work harder and become better students of the game to be competitive.

The other difficulty in finding good trader coaches is that there are no real training programs for these people. As a volleyball coach I can go to training seminars and courses, earn national and even international levels of certification, and work under the direction of other coaches more knowledgeable and experienced than myself. As yet, there is no such readily available structure in trading. We cannot look, for example, at someone's resume and see that he or she is a Level III certified coach, having been so declared by a recognized training and testing organization.

So where does that leave us? Well, clearly there is value in having a coach to help us maximize our performance in the markets. As things currently stand, though, finding a good one for our particular situation is going to remain a challenge. It requires the discipline to not just look at someone's returns and assume that they can teach you how to do that yourself (remember, teaching you a trading system is not the same as coaching you through applying a trading system). It also requires legwork to check out a possible coach. Have they coached others before? Get references. Make sure you find someone who will fulfill your particular requirements and be a good match. If you can do that, you should see your development as an effective trader really take off.
 
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mr.marcus said:
.........100% truth socco...but as you know already reality can hurt our pride..pride now there's a barrier....so therefore i can see the above to be painful in its brutal honesty ....and what is more brutal in its honesty than trading....so instead of the above being taken as a very valuable lesson.....it will be dismissed as rudeness or erased even...fantasy is a far more comfortable place to live ifor those who are not prepared to face themselves...their own short comings....those who are prepared to do so at least have a chance of finding success ...

cheers mark j

.
Yes exactly.

Of course when individuals are unable or unwilling to do the things they need to do in order to become successful as a consequence of their egos getting in the way of them being able to submit....but not submittance in a self deprecating or damaging way...but submission to the eradication of ego in trading....the result is failure....but the problem is so easy to solve..

.But individuals resolutely resist in solving it ...then this ego they have....causes them to respond to the problem they face with solutions that in trading terms are unacceptable....because the rules of engagement do not make allowances for such frailties....then as a consequence...because an inability or an unwillingness to submit....leads to frustration...envy...anger....and a shift of blame.....all this can be avoided by the individual himself.....but it reinforces the axiom of survival of the fittest....now...the fact that the thinking process, the character aspect, the self governance aspect are invisible makes it even more difficult for the ego to accept ....and to consent to modify.
 
PKFFW said:
I have trained in the Martial Arts for many years now. I've had a few teachers in my time and noticed that it is not always the best Martial Artist that is the best teacher. A good artist does not necessarily make a good teacher and a good teacher is not necessarily the best artist. I think it can be the same in trading.

It is interesting to me that many are derisive of those who write trading books, saying such things as "if they were so good why wouldn't they just make lots of money trading and not bother writing the book?". When it comes to mentors/coaches the prevailing thought seems to be that you must be a great trader to be a good mentor. So the question must be "why would they bother mentoring if they were so good? why not just trade to make money?" Seems like a double standard. Maybe the author can make a great system but doesn't have the psychology to trade it himself. Maybe the mentor has the knack of bringing out the best in others but doesn't have the perspective to bring it out in himself.

Ideally a mentor would be a highly successful trader and also very skilled in teaching the art of trading. However, in many cases one may have a good grasp of the skills needed but be unable, for a variety of reasons, to utilise those skills themselves.

Just my 2 cents anyways.

Cheers,
PKFFW
You have got it back to front as well, for a not dissimilar reason, being your perspective is an external one also.

The problem as I have described very clearly in the above posts, is not that any of this is particularly difficult....but it becomes an impossible mission for many ordinary, decent, hardworking people for the reasons I explain, in the simplest manner possible.

The problem is only one of a cluster of problems but it is the most significant one, and the one that has to be dealt with first.

In order to succeed at this you have to be able to willfully change your central core.....but fortunately only for the purpose of trading.....you cannot approach all of this with the way you are built....because the way it is constructed is guaranteed to defeat you if you persist.......therefore you have to change to deal with it....you.... cannot expect it to change to accomodate you..... or me..... as ordinary persons....this willingness to change is a glass wall you yourself have to cross...but for the great majority....it is not viewed as either necessary or even desirable.....

I am reminded of a bumble bee that found its way into my conservatory yesterday....there were four open windows.....I watched for a few minutes as it persisted in banging its head against the glass panes and refused to approach the open windows.....just like a stubborn trader, a prisoner of his own humanity would do...until I considered it had gone on long enough.....I got hold of a drinking glass and a sheet of paper and trapped it and put it outside....whereupon it happilly flew away with a loud buzz....the bumble bee does not have the reasoning powers of human beings.....so we can excuse it...but not humans in persisting with what does not work.

I hope you can now begin to percieve how it is practically impossible to graft, to transmute, certain skills.....I am not referring to what is mechanical of course...I am referring to what is intangible....abstract....invisible...as a consequence of a wilful,self imposed resolve to modify or change habitual ingrained behaviour.
 
Particularly wise words from mr.marcus and SOCRATES, REAL traders.
There is some relevant material on another thread which some might find interesting:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10573&page=4&pp=30
Posts # 111 to 121 are worth reading, imho, especially #114 and 115.
There has long been an intermittent campaign against me from those two or three individuals. It has been both on board comments and sometimes by anonymous vicious emails. I suppose it's the modern equivalent of poison pen letters; hiding like cowards behind their nicks/multi-nicks.
Recognise them by their negative contributions - they never post their own trades.......
I suggest those individuals get themselves a life, perhaps by starting with:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/obsessive_compulsive_disorder.htm
Help is available for those sufferers. One of them has actually received professional help and is struggling to get better. Good for him, I genuinely wish him the best for the future. And I am happy to forgive and forget everything he has done.
Richard
 
LevII said:
It must be correct that there are people out there who for some reason cannot or no longer can 'do' but can teach and vice versa. For example, in fields of phsical endeavour advancing age reduces the ability to perform. There must similarly come a time when a trader no longer can or wants to sit for hours in front of a computer screen. From what I am told, Tom Williams is such a person - an accomplished trader and tutor whose eyesight is no longer good but is still willing, from time to time, to coach others.

There is, however, a particular breed of coach / mentor that frequents bulletin boards and, while promoting himself as a successful professional trader able and willing (for a fee) to teach the student to trade as he does, steadfastly declines to produce hard evidence of his success as a trader.

How does the interested prospective student approach that?

How does the interested prospective student approach that? He doesn't. He runs.

For one thing, the sort of coach I referred to in my post does not "teach the student to trade as he does", though if that's the sort of coach you want, you don't have to go searching for one. All you have to do is stand still and they'll be all over you.

If you or anyone you know is looking for a coach, I suggest you prowl the boards, particularly this one, and focus on those who are doing the work in one form or another rather than just talking about it. Read what they say. Assess what they do. Even with all the caveats that accompany hindsight postings, you'll be able to tell over time who knows what they're doing and who doesn't. And if they've been posting for a while, there will be archives you can study, just in case you're for some reason in a hurry.

Approach one or more of these people. Find out if they're interested in coaching. Ask how much they'd charge for it and what the terms would be (you might find that one or more of them will be willing to coach you -- up to a point -- for nothing). You're as likely to find a good coach this way -- perhaps more likely -- than by answering the siren call of somebody who struts around the boards bragging about what a great trader he is while providing no evidence whatsoever that he can do what he claims to be able to do.

There is also the issue of just why you're interested in the subject in the first place. Are you (and I don't mean "you", personally) completely new to the whole thing and don't even know what a stop is? Or are you reasonably experienced but have somehow become stuck and need help getting unstuck? You may be interested in a relationship that could go on for months, or longer. Or you may be interested only in something short-term that will serve to get you through your current troubles.

The responsibility, therefore, lies not just with the coach. The coachee must know what it is he wants. If he's looking for a successful trader to copy, then he's likely setting himself up for disappointment. He will expect something to "work" for him, the method, the system, the coach, the whatever. If the trader is unsuccessful, it will be because the method or system or whatever "didn't work", and the coach becomes a charlatan. The responsibility for success, in other words, becomes someone else's and has nothing to do with the trader's willingness to listen, to learn, to modify his own behavior, to do the work.

A smart coach will make sure that the student knows exactly what's expected of him, particularly since it will be the student who rages through the boards ranting and raving about what a cheat the coach was and how nothing he did "worked" and so on. While some coaches are able to take the money and ignore all of this, not all are as barnacled as that and would prefer not to have become involved in the relationship in the first place. If the coach-candidate therefore does not address the issue of your responsibilities, you may be looking at someone who's in it just for the money.

Db
 
Mr. Charts said:
Particularly wise words from mr.marcus and SOCRATES, REAL traders.
There is some relevant material on another thread which some might find interesting:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10573&page=4&pp=30
Posts # 111 to 121 are worth reading, imho, especially #114 and 115.
There has long been an intermittent campaign against me from those two or three individuals. It has been both on board comments and sometimes by anonymous vicious emails. I suppose it's the modern equivalent of poison pen letters; hiding like cowards behind their nicks/multi-nicks.
Recognise them by their negative contributions - they never post their own trades.......
I suggest those individuals get themselves a life, perhaps by starting with:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/obsessive_compulsive_disorder.htm
Help is available for those sufferers. One of them has actually received professional help and is struggling to get better. Good for him, I genuinely wish him the best for the future. And I am happy to forgive and forget everything he has done.
Richard
You know how I mention there are five hurdles......you agree....between each of these hurdles there is a ditch, so deep .....as if it were an abyss...it is as if they exist to prevent the unsuited to progress...but these ditches are not technical, not tangible, and not market related at all....they are there for everyone to overcome as part of the total obstacle course.

The ditches are the intangible parts of trading.

Every detractor is a detractor because of being trapped in one of these ditches.

The question is that ....like the Grand National....runners that fall into the ditch...can get up and continue to run along....but no longer in the race itself....it is only the runners complete with jockeys who have jumped all the fences properly and cleared the ditches that have a chance to get to the winning post....none of this is the fault of the trainer.

The skill ...is to not only clear the fences....but to clear the ditches as well.

You go to extreme lengths to counterargue against the also rans, whereas I have learnt the pointlessness of it.....no amount of proof will satisfy them...no amount of reasoning.....no variety of examples to illustrate points will serve....until such time....as the penny drops for them....that we are all presented with the same facts at the same time....so the answer must be ...not that all of this is perverse and is out to get us....but how we ourselves deal with it as individuals by making the effort to properly harmonise.

This is the really difficult part.....because as I explained...it is invisible, intangible...

Of the several hundred trades of yours that I have closely examined....I cannot fault a single one of them....I am not telling you this to give you a swelled head or to curry favour ...but because it is a fact.

Now consider how difficult it is for those in the ditch to replicate .....impossible isn't it ?

Therefore you are bound to get vitriol.....which in a way is a backhanded compliment....so I should not worry too much about it and carry on....just like a handful of us do.

You will never recieve vitriol from successful traders....you will only recieve it from those who set themselves up to fail....as a consequence of a bitter resentment against achievement.

My Compliments To You, and Very Good Wishes for Continued Success and a Sparkling Performance.

Kind Regards.




 
havent really followed this thread, but heres my 2 penny worth:

a coach teaching anyone 'market methods', set-ups, strategies etc is of very limited value. the ever changing cycles of markets ensure this. i could teach someone some magic candle stick pattern that i have made zillions from, but there is no guarantee that it will still be working this time next month. if it were that easy, then....

a good example of this could be the spread trading of interest rate futures. there are so many scalpers trying this now in arcades across europe, that it is becoming very difficult i hear. this is an example of everyone betting on a favourite - or some horse with a well known positive overlay, and the public pricing the odds out of favour. the edge soon evaporates. changing cycles. neiderhoffer has written much about this.

a coach needs to do 2 things: teach you how to find your own edge rather than teach you theirs, and also coach you in survival tactics so you can cope with the trading environment as it it quite different from any other occupation.



i have spoken.

:cool:
 
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charliechan said:
havent really followed this thread, but heres my 2 penny worth:

a coach teaching anyone 'market methods', set-ups, strategies etc is of very limited value. the ever changing cycles of markets ensure this. i could teach someone some magic candle stick pattern that i have made zillions from, but there is no guarantee that it will still be working this time next month. if it were that easy, then....

a good example of this could be the spread trading of interest rate futures. there are so many scalpers trying this now in arcades across europe, that it is becoming very difficult i hear. this is an example of everyone betting on a favourite - or some horse with a well known positive overlay, and the public pricing the odds out of favour. the edge soon evaporates. changing cycles. neiderhoffer has written much about this.

a coach needs to do 2 things: teach you how to find your own edge rather than teach you theirs, and also coach you in survival tactics so you can cope with the trading environment as it it quite different from any other occupation.

i have spoken.

:cool:
Yes, and I have listened to what you have to say.....

But you omit to mention what I have explained in detail about INABILITIES that is the most important part of the excercise....whereas you are simply referring to the MECHANICS.

It is the INABILITIES that give all the grief.....and nothing else.

And I will tell you something else while I am at it shall I ?

To quote a member of my group who says:~

"The difficulty is that when they first appear they do not carry labels on their foreheads....that is the difficulty"....."If we could solve that ....we could solve everything".
 
charliechan said:
havent really followed this thread, but heres my 2 penny worth:

a coach teaching anyone 'market methods', set-ups, strategies etc is of very limited value. the ever changing cycles of markets ensure this. i could teach someone some magic candle stick pattern that i have made zillions from, but there is no guarantee that it will still be working this time next month. if it were that easy, then....

a good example of this could be the spread trading of interest rate futures. there are so many scalpers trying this now in arcades across europe, that it is becoming very difficult i hear. this is an example of everyone betting on a favourite - or some horse with a well known positive overlay, and the public pricing the odds out of favour. the edge soon evaporates. changing cycles. neiderhoffer has written much about this.

a coach needs to do 2 things: teach you how to find your own edge rather than teach you theirs, and also coach you in survival tactics so you can cope with the trading environment as it it quite different from any other occupation.



i have spoken.

:cool:

I agree. One of the more common problems I hear about and read about is the inability to adapt (though the trader may not recognize it as such), particularly over the past two to three years. You don't learn how to do that simply by copying somebody's method (unless, of course, the core of the method is knowing when and how to adapt).

Db
 
"Circular Avoidance to Confront and Properly Rectify "

.....Like a stubborn...and....stingy shipowner ......who sends a ship with a really wonky boiler..... into drydock....and insists .....it must not be replaced...but instead...well you know....sort of...fixed...:LOL:
 
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SOCRATES said:
Yes, and I have listened to what you have to say.....

But you omit to mention what I have explained in detail about INABILITIES that is the most important part of the excercise....whereas you are simply referring to the MECHANICS.

It is the INABILITIES that give all the grief.....and nothing else.

And I will tell you something else while I am at it shall I ?

To quote a member of my group who says:~

"The difficulty is that when they first appear they do not carry labels on their foreheads....that is the difficulty"....."If we could solve that ....we could solve everything".


at first, i was about to say that i dont like to focus on inabilities. i prefer to focus upon the positives, what can be done, not what cant be done.

but then i saw the post mr m. responede to, and i have a better grasp now of what you mean. thats what you get if you butt into a conversation without fully appreciating what is being discussed.

during the world cup, there was much criticism of our ability to play 'set pieces'. i know little about football, but i got the impression they were talking about the mechanical parts of playing football. how to position yourself before a corner kick, throw in, etc.

the mechanical element as you know must be mastered first before the other bit can be approached. ronaldo would agree with this i think, as would brazilian street kids who reach roony & owen levels at the age of about 4 or 5 as anyone who has been near a favellah(spelling?) will attest to.

also, a very good living can still be made from the mechanical phase, as the interest rate spread traders found out, and also the endland football team - who according to linaker, have yet to master the mechanical stage as 2nd nature.

but yes, there are hurdles to cross in order to get past the mechanical stages. i am not there yet myself, but every day i hope to get closer.

the mechanical pathway of course is well documented, despite most still struggling. the route to the intuitive level which is where im guessing youre going with this however is not. this is why you only 'indulge' with steps 1-3, but purposefully omit steps 4-5 (probably as a defence mechanism inorder to avoid the barrage of insults that would arrive if you were to do so). people as you know will plead and beg for steps 4-5, while stuck on step 2. we both know you will not give steps 4 &5. all though i do know that, i kind of get the impression they are to be found by the individual, and not yours to give in the first place.

maybe if the difficult steps of 1-3 could be solved with something as simple as a mirror, maybe 4&5 can be solved with a simpler household object???? ?a potatoe peeler perhaps?
 
charliechan said:
but yes, there are hurdles to cross in order to get past the mechanical stages. i am not there yet myself, but every day i hope to get closer.

And if that's what you really want, you are right to do so, and you are a candidate for finding someone who can help you do so.

However, there is an underlying assumption here that trading intuitively is an ultimate good, and that one is not a "real" trader unless he does so. But there are a great many traders who do just fine without trading intuitively, or who incorporate intuition only as a "tie-breaker" when their method does not provide a clear path to follow.

So one must at some point decide just what it is that he wants. If one wants to learn to trade intuitively, then, again, he needs to find someone who can help him do so. If he couldn't care less about that but just wants to make a nice living, then he has other courses open to him. If he wants to trade mostly for fun and has no other goal than to supplement his income from other sources, then he has still other courses open to him.

There are many reasons for trading. There are many goals. There are many ways of reaching those goals. Taking the veil is only one of them.

Db
 
charliechan said:
maybe 4&5 can be solved with a simpler household object???? ?a potatoe peeler perhaps?

Pure genius. Almost as good as "an iceberg lettuce and a knife and fork".
 
dbphoenix said:
But there are a great many traders who do just fine without trading intuitively, or who incorporate intuition only as a "tie-breaker" when their method does not provide a clear path to follow.

So one must at some point decide just what it is that he wants. If one wants to learn to trade intuitively, then, again, he needs to find someone who can help him do so. If he couldn't care less about that but just wants to make a nice living, then he has other courses open to him. If he wants to trade mostly for fun and has no other goal than to supplement his income from other sources, then he has still other courses open to him.


Db
yes i agree. there are loads of successful mechanical traders. i tried to put that point into the post - but maybe it didnt come across.

however, i think if you are going to be successful at this, you MUST put in 100% plus. trying to be a hobby trader is no use. you are destined to lose. the concept of 'trading for fun' is beyond me, although it is imperative we enjoy what we are doing. may get the odd win, but end up a net loser for sure. just like i would be when i bet on the derby or something. but who am i to tell people what to do with their money?
 
sandpiper said:
Pure genius. Almost as good as "an iceberg lettuce and a knife and fork".

i hope it wasnt read as a snide remark. i never meant it to be, but a reference to the peeling of the layers of our personality.
 
charliechan said:
however, i think if you are going to be successful at this, you MUST put in 100% plus. trying to be a hobby trader is no use. you are destined to lose. the concept of 'trading for fun' is beyond me, although it is imperative we enjoy what we are doing. may get the odd win, but end up a net loser for sure. just like i would be when i bet on the derby or something.

I don't disagree. However, I'm not prepared to tell people that this is the only course since I know more than a few who do just fine in meeting their goals -- which some would consider modest -- without making this their life's work, largely, I suspect, because they are able to do it without ego.

Personally, I no longer work with recreational traders because it's always turned out to be a waste of my time. But, at the same time, I can't claim that they are doomed to fail. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't, but it is after all their money and their choice.

Db
 
charliechan said:
i hope it wasnt read as a snide remark. i never meant it to be, but a reference to the peeling of the layers of our personality.

Not at all :LOL: I understood it exactly as you intended. The praise was sincere. Apologies if it came across another way.

Regards.
 
sandpiper said:
Not at all :LOL: I understood it exactly as you intended. The praise was sincere. Apologies if it came across another way.

Regards.


lol - im sorry for misunderstanding what was not in fact a misunderstanding. the misunderstanding was entirly mine. now i understand! i realise that you could equally peel away the leaves of an iceberg lettuce with a knife and fork.
 
dbphoenix said:
. . . . For one thing, the sort of coach I referred to in my post does not "teach the student to trade as he does", though if that's the sort of coach you want, you don't have to go searching for one. All you have to do is stand still and they'll be all over you.

I could not disagree more.
Mr. charts (Richard Joyson) is an example of a coach/mentor (call him what you will), who does exactly this. He teaches how he trades. And good on him, I say. He has his perception of the markets and, based upon this, he trades for a consistent profit - day after day after day. IMO, he is highly qualified to do one thing above all else: to instruct others in his specific methodology. If the methodology does not 'fit' the student, then that is their tough luck; it's not Richard's problem. Perhaps some coaches / mentors have the skill and ability to assess the precise strengths and weaknesses of each individual student that they encounter and then, on the basis of these personal characteristics, recommend a way forward. A profitable way forward. If this is the case, then to my mind, the tutee or student / disciple is placing far too high a burden of expectation upon the the coach / mentor. I don't know if the extract that I've quoted is intended as a dig at Richard or not (or Naz come to that). If it is, it is, it is both unfair and unwarranted.

dbphoenix said:
If you or anyone you know is looking for a coach, I suggest you prowl the boards, particularly this one, and focus on those who are doing the work in one form or another rather than just talking about it. Read what they say. Assess what they do. Even with all the caveats that accompany hindsight postings, you'll be able to tell over time who knows what they're doing and who doesn't. And if they've been posting for a while, there will be archives you can study, just in case you're for some reason in a hurry.Db

Well, indeed. This all sounds very plausible - obvious even. More or less, it is what I've been trying to do for the past four years or so. Clearly, I'm no longer a complete 'newbie' without an understanding of what a stop is. Equally, I'm sorry to report to any 'newbies' that may be reading this, the simple formula quoted above by dbp is not that straightforward. I'm going to stick my neck out here and list 5 specific traders known to these boards and apply - or attempt to apply dbd's approach to each of them. Let's see where it gets us. The five gurus, mentors, coaches, tutors - call them wahat you will are - in alphabetical order:
1. dbphoenix.
2. Grey 1.
3. Mr. Charts
4. mr. marcus.
5. SOCRATES.
So. I am a 'newbie', and I spend some time on T2W and, sooner or later, I come across all five of the above. Now, I know because I've been around a bit that there are some strong alliances among some of the five but, equally, there are some opposing views that (almost) manage to eclipse those of the current middle east conflict. As far as I can tell, all five of the above are profitable traders. Yet, some of them will - I know for a fact - dismiss the others as dunces and charlatans! I openly support No. 3 - Mr. Charts, because he regularly posts his own trades, with entry and exit, backed up by a screen shot of his broker account. To be fair, Grey 1 does this as well. Mr. marcus is an oddball, because he does not post his trades but, nonetheless, his contributions to Barjon's 'Wot Happened Next' threads clearly put him in a league of his own. He has to be taken seriosly by anyone. This leaves dbphoenix and SOCRATES, who will loathe to be lumped together :cheesy: But, while they both have much to contribute to the art of trading, neither regularly posts their own trades with entry and exits. So, how - precisely - is the the 'newbie' or not so new trader supposed to distinguish between the five gurus and decide which to listen to and which to ignore? Perhads I should create a poll and let members cast their votes . . . ?

dbphoenix said:
Approach one or more of these people. Find out if they're interested in coaching. Ask how much they'd charge for it and what the terms would be (you might find that one or more of them will be willing to coach you -- up to a point -- for nothing). You're as likely to find a good coach this way -- perhaps more likely -- than by answering the siren call of somebody who struts around the boards bragging about what a great trader he is while providing no evidence whatsoever that he can do what he claims to be able to do.
Good point dbp. Only problem is that as others have noted, you provide no evidence that your approach is any better or any more profitable than anyone else's approach. Indeed, many have suggested to me that you don't actually trade at all. You are brilliant at intellectualising about it, but there is no evidence whatsoever that you can actually do it. I'd be delighted if you could prove otherwise. ;)
Tim.
 
charliechan said:
at first, i was about to say that i dont like to focus on inabilities. i prefer to focus upon the positives, what can be done, not what cant be done.

but then i saw the post mr m. responede to, and i have a better grasp now of what you mean. thats what you get if you butt into a conversation without fully appreciating what is being discussed.

during the world cup, there was much criticism of our ability to play 'set pieces'. i know little about football, but i got the impression they were talking about the mechanical parts of playing football. how to position yourself before a corner kick, throw in, etc.

the mechanical element as you know must be mastered first before the other bit can be approached. ronaldo would agree with this i think, as would brazilian street kids who reach roony & owen levels at the age of about 4 or 5 as anyone who has been near a favellah(spelling?) will attest to.

also, a very good living can still be made from the mechanical phase, as the interest rate spread traders found out, and also the endland football team - who according to linaker, have yet to master the mechanical stage as 2nd nature.

but yes, there are hurdles to cross in order to get past the mechanical stages. i am not there yet myself, but every day i hope to get closer.

the mechanical pathway of course is well documented, despite most still struggling. the route to the intuitive level which is where im guessing youre going with this however is not. this is why you only 'indulge' with steps 1-3, but purposefully omit steps 4-5 (probably as a defence mechanism inorder to avoid the barrage of insults that would arrive if you were to do so). people as you know will plead and beg for steps 4-5, while stuck on step 2. we both know you will not give steps 4 &5. all though i do know that, i kind of get the impression they are to be found by the individual, and not yours to give in the first place.

maybe if the difficult steps of 1-3 could be solved with something as simple as a mirror, maybe 4&5 can be solved with a simpler household object???? ?a potatoe peeler perhaps?
It is not that I dwell or concentrate on the inabilities in preference to the abilities.

The abilities are readily identifiable between a few of us who already posses them.

But the inabilities beset so many people and give so many problems that they have to be mentioned.

All human beings by virtue of being human and having self preservation and survival instincts are wired in a certain way to react to given stimuli. These responses are perfect for the purposes for which they exist.....but not for trading.

Trading requires a different set of responses. These responses are practically alien to the human condition given that the human condition additionally carries the nuisance of emotions.

The central core of how human response works is not suited to the cruel yes no scenario that trading entails, it is suited to survive, self preserve, procreate, eat, drink,seek shelter, obtain warmth, sleep, detect illness, and so on.....

The act of trading requires a central core that is not a natural central core in the sense that it is not constructed additionally to take on the functions as described above.

It therefore means that for the purpose of first laying the groundwork leading to perfect intuition, correct response, perfect timing and dare I say it...futurology....is to create a central core which is suited to these tasks.

The problem is that the existing central core views itself as perfect....(because it is...it is successful in preserving life etc., ) and blocks the development of a replacement that it views as a usurper....that is ....a threat to its authority....that it cannot tolerate because to do so would entail dereliction of responsibility to preserve life etc., where the original central core is so deeply rooted and so securely anchored that it refuses to be removed.

Modification is not sufficient....it is not sufficient because it allows the original protocols under which the original central core is constructed at any given time to suddenly overrule and take over. So it is a complete REWIRING job that has to be done. This self rewiting is attainable by some people but not by everybody, which is what puzzles me.

Now the great majority cannot cross this hurdle. In any event they do not view replacing the central core with another central core (constructed specially only for trading) as neccessary, desireable,justifiable, or achievable.

So from the very word go...there is a problem.

This problem has to be resolved at a very early stage in order to leave the path ahead clear in order to progress.

It is a matter of conviction, persistence, awareness and a measure of determination and personal bravery of such intensity that the original central core effectively snuffs out the idea even before it can take root....why ? simple...the idea of a replacement (not modification) absolutely threatens its authority...this cannot and will not be tolerated...therefore it is not that the idea is dropped....more to the point...the idea...gets sabotaged.

The original central core attempts to carry out the task for which it is not constructed, for which it is not suitable and for which it is not prepared, and keeps the aspirant PRISONER and unable to progress to the final desired mental state,

So I cannot even begin to talk about 4 and 5 in a public forum if already for most ordinary people 1 2 and 3 already create insurmountable problems.

Before one can run, one must teach oneself to walk.

One has to teach oneself....because no one can walk for us...otherwise it would be simple...

And there is another problem with it.

It is not a tangible concept. It is not a material thing that you can dismantle and examine and understand....the problem is that it is ABSTRACT....and therefore difficult to explain and to demonstrate.

When it is demonstrated...it is very difficult for the observer to either accept or understand, let alone be able to clone....you put two traders in front of a screen and they are both shown the same information...the difference lies in how the information is processed in accordance with what I have explained above.

That is invisible to the naked eye....but the result is what qualifies the thought processes used.
 
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timsk said:
Good point dbp. Only problem is that as others have noted, you provide no evidence that your approach is any better or any more profitable than anyone else's approach. Indeed, many have suggested to me that you don't actually trade at all. You are brilliant at intellectualising about it, but there is no evidence whatsoever that you can actually do it. I'd be delighted if you could prove otherwise. ;)
Tim.

Prove what? What you and some others fail to understand is that I don't claim to be a great trader, nor do I have a "method" or a "system" to teach or sell. If I did, then I could be expected to post results. But I don't. My focus since the CANSLIM days has been to help beginners create their own strategies throught the development of a trading plan. Since so few are willing to go to the trouble, I work with very few people.

Those who want something else, of course, have plenty to choose from. Those who want to learn to trade intuitively can hire Socrates. Those who want to learn to trade like Richard can turn to Richard. And so on.

As I said, there are many ways to make money. It's up to the individual to determine which is best for him.

Db
 
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