my journal

This is a discussion on my journal within the Trading Journals forums, part of the Reception category; I can't scale because I usually just trade 1 contract. Yeah, overall I value peace of mind, I'm starting to ...

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Old Dec 3, 2009, 9:14pm   #1051
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread I can't scale because I usually just trade 1 contract. Yeah, overall I value peace of mind, I'm starting to realize that. I'll follow my plan because of it gives me peace of mind.
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Old Dec 3, 2009, 9:24pm   #1052
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Re: my journal

like you'll feel guilty knowing you made money breakign your rules, like you don't deserve it . If you move up to 2 contracts you could begin scaling
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Old Dec 3, 2009, 9:38pm   #1053
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread Scaling to me is a very foreign concept. Even if I could do it, I don't think i would. I don't understand the logic behind it. I mean if it makes sense to open a trade, i don't see why it shouldn't make sense to open all the positions you are planning to open right there and then, and I don't see the rationale for postponing that, and the same applies to closing that trade. I don't get it. I am bad at formulas, so maybe that is why I don't get it.

Regarding the feelings of guilt, I have some, for being greedy, for letting my greed drive me to act dangerously. I feel that I shouldn't have done it, because I didn't follow the plan and took big risks. But it wasn't entirely gambling, as I couldn't miss the opportunity to make money I could make in those moments of high volatility (usual news at 14.30 CET), and so I had to improvise, because you can't trade the news with moving averages (everything happens in 5 minutes). I need money right now, because I am very tired from the office, and I am trying to get fired. Every day I try to get myself fired. Today I didn't go and I didn't even call them to say I was sick or what was the matter with me. Of course they know that I am worn out by all the work they're having me do, while they go on long coffee breaks. So that's also why I can just stay home one day and not get fired. It's either I do that or I go for the shooting rampage.

If only I could get to 20k of capital, I think I could get fired any time and be able to support myself. However what I can't do is quit, because parents and relatives would never leave me alone and would forever tell me that I have been reckless. Yes, because I have a family, a father in particular, who also shares his wisdom only when it's too late. Some of it you get in advance, before you do something, but most of it you get it later, in the form of useless criticism: "you shouldn't have...", "you could have...", "if you had...".

I did get to 25k once, over a year ago, just on my automated systems, but back then I was into full time gambling mode, and partly I blew the winnings, partly I spent them, and partly I started a trade on the GBP that didn't want to bounce back up, and that took me from 15k to 4k, because I kept my positions open (long) for over a month.

Last edited by Yamato; Dec 3, 2009 at 10:14pm.
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Old Dec 3, 2009, 10:01pm   #1054
 
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Re: my journal

Scaling isn't a good strategy for Travis; It will give him an excuse to enter without a good entry...
1. One position at a time
2. With the trend
(Maybe only go long, if its an up day - Only go short, if its a down day) And try make it so an actual trend exists; Not much a direction/range - One that has sustainably existed for a while maybe?
3. One contract

I think if you waited patiently until a nice day-trend appeared, not trying to catch the start and bought a contract when you deem a good buy - It would work out well; Because you seem to, when you go anti-trend ... Get stuck in some big trends against you, so maybe you should work on capturing them!

Also; Maybe post trades that you are considering on here first; Noting the trend and direction and where you plan to exit; Then maybe you can get feedback on appropriate exits (like stops/Targets).

Cheers
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Old Dec 3, 2009, 10:18pm   #1055
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread Yes, I will. I've been doing that (posting my trades before I make them). The things you said all make sense. My discretionary system is pretty clear, and I've posted it each time here. Today I didn't follow it at around 14.30 CET.


PRO-TREND DISCRETIONARY SYSTEM
HOTKEYS
Set up hotkeys:
"B" for "buy 1 at market" with 20 ticks bracket order,
"S" for "sell 1 at market" with 20 ticks bracket order,
"C" for "close position".
----------------------
CHARTS
SET UP THESE CHARTS ON IB'S TWS:
1 MONTH TO 15 MINUTES OF ES, CL, GBP "line" mode
2 DAYS OF EUR.USD@IDEALPRO 15-minutes CANDLES WITH PIVOTS
4 HOURS OF EUR.USD@IDEALPRO 1-MINUTE CANDLES WITH 15-periods and 210-periods moving averages
----------------------
RULES
ENTRIES can be made if:
1) you haven't lost over 250 dollars for the day (from discretionary trading)
2) your entry and your take profit are >=10 ticks away from any pivot lines
3) you're monitoring "correlated" chart (1 month to 15 minutes)
4) the 225-period ma is in favor by >= 5 ticks
5) the 15-period ma gets crossed by price (in favor) after touching the other side >= 3 minutes
EXITS
1) Bracket order of 20 ticks.
2) You can exit early if you wish, but not increase the distance of the stoploss.
3) If the trade is still open after 1 hour, close it as soon as both averages are against it.
----------------------
TRADES MADE
20091130: takeprofit
20091130: takeprofit
20091201: early exit with 1 tick profit
20091202: stoploss
20091203: takeprofit
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Old Dec 3, 2009, 11:16pm   #1056
 
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Insomniac again

Yamato started this thread Sweet dreams, son
Damn, it happened yet another time. Since everyone keeps telling me here to give my father a chance, I did, and stayed in the living room a bit longer, until he came home. And sure enough he told me about his worries. Didn't ask me anything about me, didn't tell me anything pleasant, but went on telling about his worries the whole time. His worry today is that there will be a huge inflation, all over the world, and our money in the bank will lose most of its value. So we have to hurry and buy a house as soon as possible. So it's not enough that I couldn't sleep all last night because I carry the weight of my office on my shoulders despite not having any responsibility as manager or anything, but only because I am doing everything. Now I have to spend another night awake because as usual my dad has told me about some impending catastrophe. That sonuvabitch. Ever since I was a child this sick mother ****er has been telling that he could die at any time, and to be prepared, because when he was six his father died. Great, dad, thanks for putting me in this world and then ruining my life. Sweet dreams to myself now...

Impending catastrophes...but he doesn't seem worried
I told him that it's a bad idea to buy a house in rome, because he could get ripped off, and because I don't like rome at all and I don't plan on living here, and he doesn't either after retirement, so why would we buy a house where neither of us plans to live? Also, I told him, why... how can you worry so much about inflation and let your portfolio manager handle your money and invest it in stocks and bonds when obviously he doesn't know anything about how to invest it or else you wouldn't be having bonds from the bank you're a customer of, and your capital would have increased at least more than 2% a year. So you give me all this stress about inflation, but you didn't give a damn about your money for the past 20 years... it makes me wonder whether you are just sick and enjoy randomly passing worries on to people around you. Sick son of a bitch...

A question I didn't want to hear
Then he told me "what should I do then...?". I can't believe this guy asked me such a question when my whole life he acted like he was god and knew about everything at all times. I dodged the question because it made me uncomfortable, but lately I've been thinking that he lost some of his confidence. It seems like a big change actually.

I want his money, but I don't want him to give it to me...
I could have said to him: since your money is not worth very much to you and since it might lose all its value soon and since you're asking me what you should do, then give me just one hundred thousand euros and let me invest it as I wish. But I didn't say it, even though it crossed my mind. First because he might have said no and that would have been humiliating. Second, because he might have said yes, and that would have been a disappointment, because I'd have felt like my father ceased to be what he's been all these years: the one in charge, the responsible one. If he said "yes, I'll give you the money you ask for", I'd feel like he's become senile. And that in turn would be make me feel quite stressed out, because I've always counted on him to not be stupid. My world would kind of crumble, if he told me "yes, you can have my money".

But actually I don't want anyone's money
So, when he asked me "what should I do with my money?", I didn't say "give me some" because he might say no and offend me, and because he might say yes and worry me. And also for a third reason: I didn't want a yes, because I know how irresponsible I've been in the past, and I certainly could not afford to lose 100 thousand dollars or my trading career would end. As I've said before, I believe, to protect yourself from yourself, you should start with as little capital as possible and then build it up, all by yourself. That's the only way to become totally good and reliable, when you learn the value of money and the difficulty of making your capital grow. And you also learn it without losing too much money in the process. If you can grow a big enough capital (30k) despite starting undercapitalized, then it means you're really ready to take other people's money, but then you wouldn't need it, because you already have your own capital. So in all situations, or almost all situations, it's not a good idea to ask people for money. Unless of course you don't have a job, and no income, and then you cannot start unless someone gives you some money. But then maybe you should get a job.

Undercapitalization is less of a problem than overcapitalization
So I don't believe in being given money from other people. One should work and raise his own capital. If I had been given the money I wanted to be given, by now I wouldn't have lost 50 thousand dollars in 12 years but millions. Hopefully I'll make that 50k back in a few months. I've lost it 500 at a time, week by week, month by month, very slowly. It's less than 400 dollars per month, in 12 years. Partly I lost it because I didn't know how to trade and gambled instead. Partly I lost it because I could not trade the right financial instruments, futures. I traded options with large bid-ask spreads, instruments with low leverage... commissions... these are all problems, but you have to be able to make money even on the wrong instruments, if you really want to be ready.

It's best to encounter all problems from the start, and while you have a small capital
So all difficulties are good, even having a small capital or trading the wrong securities, and having an account with the wrong broker. Because they all teach you what's better. You learn to value the good broker, the good instrument... for example futures are superior to options, because you have to worry about less. There's fewer variables to worry about, so they're just better. They allow you to focus on picking the right direction and timing. You can't do everything so you should try to keep things as simple as possible. That's what people at work don't understand. They ask quality, quantity, don't simplify and don't even want to work. They want me to work for them and they don't even make it easy for me. I am going to have some fun now, seeing how far I can push them before getting fired. They don't even appreciate my work, I mean they appreciate when I am gone, but not when I am there. They say it's easy because I do it quickly, not because they could ever do it. Maybe tomorrow I won't go to work. Maybe I will.

Overnight LONG on the GBP, expecting a reversal
I started a long trade on the GBP, outside of my system, looking for a 25% correction compared to the down move of today. That's what you usually get in the night after something like today happens. But maybe I am wrong. The GBP doesn't behave like the other markets I follow. The JPY is even more unpredictable. But most likely, with those 2 contracts, I'll make the 500 dollars I am expecting to make. That would take me to about 7.5 k, which means 50% gain in a week so far. I am pretty satisfied. Of course in the previous week I had taken my capital from 10k to 5k, so that's how bad I actually suck. Yep, I just looked and the GBP is rising as expected. Already up 260 dollars. Another 20 ticks and I'll be done. Nope. Just looked again, 30 or more minutes later after that previous sentence, and now I'm only up 60 dollars.

Still cannot sleep
After all these hours spent writing, thanks to that last pleasant chat with my father, I can't go back to sleep. Instead of telling me something to tranquilize me, since he knows how stressed out I am about my work getting out of control, he told me about inflation and how all money will soon be worthless, quite a way to agitate me and right before I was supposed to go to sleep. If it weren't true, it would be funny, possibly the subject for a comedy, I realize that.

Last edited by Yamato; Dec 4, 2009 at 12:31am.
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 12:13am   #1057
Joined Apr 2008
Re: my journal

Sleep well... Don't let your dad's worries get to you. He's getting old with all that entails. You do have a choice about whether or not to worry about your work stuff and your dad's worries. Simply choose to not worry about them (sometimes that's easier said than done, but even so.) There's no point in worrying about something if you can't affect the thing you're worrying over. So resolve to never worry about stuff, unless the worry can help you achieve something to solve whatever you're worrying about. And even then, it's usually better to just take action to resolve whatever you want to worry about, rather than actually wasting energy worrying. And if something is beyond your control, then just let it go. No amount of worry will make any shred of difference then, so it's totally wasted energy and effort.

Anyway, as for the concern about inflation and it's effects on cash - your dad may be right in the long term but it really shouldn't be something to lie awake over at night, and certainly not right now/yet. For what it's worth, I take a keen interest in the inflation vs. deflation debate - I'm fairly undecided on the outcome at the minute, although shorter term I think we've got more deflationary pressures to deal with, longer term probably all the money printing must *eventually* result in higher inflation but it remains to be seen how much and when. I suspect we'll have Credit Crunch V2.0 before we need to worry about inflation as the primary problem.

In any event, you should just tell him not to worry, it's all under control (and then just keep an eye on the whole issue.) It may be worthwhile to start gaining some exposure to gold bullion and other precious metals, maybe some purchases of GLD or such, which is an ETF that actually buys gold bullion. Gold's noticeably up lately as I'm sure you're aware. As for me, I've been contemplating getting some precious metals exposure at some point as an inflation hedge but I don't think it's neccesary yet... Don't really see the point of tying funds up holding gold for extended periods. But then I'm a relative noob so what do I know!
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Last edited by wprins; Dec 4, 2009 at 12:21am.
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 12:40am   #1058
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread Yeah, thanks. But my dad is like me. He thinks he knows more than anyone else, so if I tell him that you said to not worry, he's not going to listen. He's got his sources and he'd teach me about trading if I let him. He's always lecturing you even about whatever subject is your favorite subject, never acknowledging you any competence on any subject higher than his competence. Even if I told him about Taxi Driver being my favorite movie, he'd start telling me, teaching me something he knows about it. Then he'd move on to another topic, without allowing you to say anything about your favorite movie. If you still try to tell him something about it, he won't show any interest. Now you can see why I am so opposed to people trying to teach me anything: I've developed an allergy to that, since I've had a father like this.

In the meanwhile, my GBP position is losing 200 dollars.

Thanks for the info about inflation-deflation. That's what I suspected, and I wasn't really that worried about it. But after meeting with my dad, he just took my peace of mind away from me, enough to keep me from sleeping, if you add the stress about work to the stress he just gave me. To tell you the truth even if my dad didn't speak, the memories from the past are so bad, that just being next to him before going to sleep stresses me enough to cause me insomnia.

My mom told me that my father told her a few times that everything he touches he destroys. It's true. He's destructive. Sometimes I think that I tend to self-destruction. Like if I am doing ok with my trading, I'll come up with something that brings my capital back down. Or if I am doing ok at work, I'll skip work for a few days. I don't know. Sometimes I feel that I should have killed my father. Either killed him or have moved very far away from him, like to australia. And never talked to him again. He abused me emotionally, maybe without realizing it. But still, I should have not stayed around and let him destroy me. However the fact is that I lived pretty far from my family for over 10 years, but I still felt his negative influence through phone calls and emails.

He's given me a desire to destroy myself, subconsciously, indirectly, via anxiety. Maybe not exactly a desire: what destroys me is anxiety and compulsive behaviours, such as posting incessantly on this forum, scratching my head... all these things, that anxiety makes me do, come from worries he instilled into my mind over the many years we lived together.

Some sentences that still resonate in my mind are: "do not slouch or people will take advantage of you" (or similar, hard to translate), "always leave a room exactly how you find it", "do not leave the mark of your ass on the bed after sitting on it, to make a phone call"... I remember he used to kick me and my mom, quite frequently, trying to signal to us that we were saying something inappropriate. I remember still very vividly reprimanded for my handwriting (when his is unreadable), for not shaving while on vacation...

This is like talking to the shrink except that I can do it for free.

Last edited by Yamato; Dec 4, 2009 at 1:05am.
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 12:49am   #1059
Joined Apr 2008
Re: my journal

BTW, I also managed to also start clawing back some of the loss of the other day today, as I managed to get in early on the right side of an interest positive trade which went quite a bit of distance thanks to the ECB stuff (short EUR/TRY @ 2.26167, this is the same pair that caused me the loss, but now I'm on the right side of the trend and gaining interest while the trade is open.) Also still have another open trade though unfortunately interest negative, but anyway, managed to capture about 1000 pips so far (long USD/ZAR @ 7.30388). All in all I'm up about 17%, not bad for a days work... now to ensure I don't lose it all again!!!
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 1:16am   #1060
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by wprins View Post
BTW, I also managed to also start clawing back some of the loss of the other day today, as I managed to get in early on the right side of an interest positive trade which went quite a bit of distance thanks to the ECB stuff (short EUR/TRY @ 2.26167, this is the same pair that caused me the loss, but now I'm on the right side of the trend and gaining interest while the trade is open.) Also still have another open trade though unfortunately interest negative, but anyway, managed to capture about 1000 pips so far (long USD/ZAR @ 7.30388). All in all I'm up about 17%, not bad for a days work... now to ensure I don't lose it all again!!!
Well, congratulations. I don't know much about the "pip" world. I hear everyone here talking about "pips" rather than "ticks" and I don't know how you guys trade, what brokers, how the trading takes place, if it is at an exchange like CME, or if it is "bucket shop", which I also ignore how it works... I still haven't figured out what "spreadbetting" means but I am pretty sure we're not talking about futures. So it must be... I don't know. I get lost with all these currencies and pips.
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 1:20am   #1061
 
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discretionary trade (outside protrend system)

Yamato started this thread I am not totally out of control because this method has been back-tested, but basically I made yet another trade outside that system I've been talking about.

I am betting the GBP will bounce back up in the next few hours to recover 25% of what it lost in this chart from yesterday (the chart is up to now).

snap1.jpg

If it doesn't, or whatever it does, I'll close the position at about 9 AM CET. If it reaches that 25% retracement, then I'll exit early.
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 1:26am   #1062
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread At this point it is totally impossible that I'll go to work tomorrow either. And now I am starting to feel guilty, also because I won't be calling them tomorrow either to say that I am sick (of them) or anything. But they got me into this mess by overloading me with work. So... it's up to them. They either start treating me better, and give me less work, or they might as well fire me. Because I can't keep on going like this: i'd die or go on a shooting rampage. All those who have sent me work are supposed to be feeling pretty guilty right now. The whole compliance department should be feeling guilty for going on long coffee breaks while I was busy doing pivot tables, working on databases and statistics for them all.

The thing these people don't understand and cannot understand is that it takes focus to work on excel. If I work on a table for you and I do it in 15 minutes, it doesn't mean that I'll make 40 tables in 8 hours, because I won't be able to produce that much reasoning without overheating my own brain, and burning out like a computer processor. They actually know, and that is why they refuse to learn to do this work, so I can do it for them. It's funny. Those who can do, do. Those who can't do, attend meetings and take decisions for us who work. You get hired, you can't do anything, so they say "well, let's make him the boss, since he can't do anything".

Well, the boss and the aspiring bosses will have to understand that I am tired of reasoning. X work in one hour does not mean X work times 8 in 8 hours. The brain cannot take it. Their brain doesn't do anything at all, so why are they asking me to destroy my brain with all their demands? I still remember those clueless looks on their faces when they ask me to do something for them, and I replied "look, I can't process this much information... I am not going to do any more tables for you guys, since you are not part of my office and this task belongs entirely to you". They looked at me as if they had no one else to turn to, and that's part of where my anxiety comes from: these people have become dependent on me. They haven't learned to do it themselves, and they cannot do it without me, but the CEO and those other guys (don't know the terms in English) ask for the reporting and the reporting comes from me, so if I stop doing the work I've been doing, ten people will be screwed. Yet they keep on asking for more and more, and I am not even part of their office... it's a total disaster: nothing works here, and the few people who do their job get burdened with everyone else's tasks.

And obviously there comes a point when a guy like me, getting paid less than all these slackers, half as much as them, says "enough". I get paid less than you, you go on coffee breaks, and I get nervous breakdowns to make you look good with the reporting and statistics?

Big part of this problem was caused by me. If I didn't get offended all my life by my dad, I wouldn't feel insecure. If I didn't feel insecure I wouldn't enjoy so much to feel needed by people, thereby helping them and making them become dependent on me. I am the one who was kind to them and produced the work for them all along. They relied on me, and now there's like 20 people who come to me to get their work done and I can't take it any more. I should have told them, months ago, "no", "no", "no, this I can't do", "no, I don't have time", and if they insisted "screw you". But I didn't. And now, all at once, I disappear. It's not good. I should have been firm and say "no", when the work was getting too much. It's a new situation for me, and they kept coming from all directions asking me for help... I didn't have any panic attacks - I just didn't show up, as I usually do in these situations.

Another cause of all this is my inability to preserve capital, to use proper money management, maybe of wanting too much too soon, because otherwise I wouldn't be here with 7k, since i was at 24k over a year ago. I would be able to quit by now. And no one would be in trouble. I saw that the amount of work was increasing. I saw that the rest of my office was falling behind. I wasn't falling behind and I didn't care about the fact that the rest was falling behind. But then somehow their problems were passed to me, because they gave me more and more work, while they still kept on going for frequent coffee breaks. They didn't get anxious about their work not being done, and instead gave it to me. When I think of this, I think I am doing the best thing by not going for a couple of days and letting them feel some anxiety and panic for the fear of having to deal with work themselves.

Oh, man... what a ridiculous situation. It's funny and crazy... my dad knocking on the door asking me how I am doing and yet he's the cause of the whole problem. And he continues to contribute to my anxiety which is the whole problem. By telling me about inflation tonight, and by asking me how I am in the morning, in a vain attempt to make me go to work, which he'll try tomorrow again. When he'll come and knock, I'll still be typing.

The problem is that if he tries to make me go, I'll not only refuse to go - since I always make sure to do the opposite of what he asks - but I'll also be unable to sleep the next night.

Everything could just be solved if he gave me 100k and let me invest it for 6 months. That's all I'd need. I could quit my job, and solve his worries about impending catastrophes as well.

Besides, his asking me how I am doesn't make any sense. If it weren't for the anxiety he passed on to me, I would be fine. So if he really cared, he should stay away from me instead of knocking on my door and telling me about impending catastrophes. If he wanted to help me he'd stay away from me.

And tomorrow that mother ****er will still come and knock on my door and ask me how I am and if I am planning to go to work.

Last edited by Yamato; Dec 4, 2009 at 2:10am.
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 2:16am   #1063
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread It's 3 am here and this thing still isn't bouncing and I am showing a loss of 60 dollars right now. Sometimes I am wrong but this has been backtested and it usually works. There should be a bounce up in the next 4 hours. I am expecting it to start any time. It's been falling for a whole day and an overnight bounce is overdue.

snap1.jpg

All I am expecting is for price to reach the top of the yellow box, within the next 4 hours.
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 2:44am   #1064
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread I am expecting the next candles, even this last one which is red right now, to be all green for the next 3 hours at least. These are hourly candles. We've been falling too long.

snap1.jpg
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Old Dec 4, 2009, 2:53am   #1065
 
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Re: my journal

Yamato started this thread Ok, it finally started. The rise first started on the stock indexes futures ES and YM and then spread to the GBP, if we can use this term. It is also happening on the CL and on the EUR.

I don't have many doubts left that the GBP will recover at least 25% of yesterday's loss, which to me will mean 500 dollars, bringing me back to over 7.5k which ain't much if I think that I had 10k just 10 days ago, but which is 50% more than a week ago, when I had 5k and at a moment a bit less than 5k, with an open trade on the GBP if I remember correctly.

I am writing the last few posts, as i am totally exhausted. I keep on writing to stay awake, and I stay awake to be exhausted by tomorrow morning so I won't get up when my dad will knock on my door to pressure me to go to work. I don't feel that I should even answer. I still resent that mother ****er for everything he's done to me in my life. I hope I'll get some advantages from having put up with so much.

It seems to be stuck at 1.6544... it's been around there for hours.

snap1.jpg

Wow, miracle. It touched 1.6547... probably a sign that it's about to take off upward. In the next two hours I'll finally make the much desired amount of 500 dollars, which would be enough, if guaranteed every day, to quit my job immediately and solve all my problems.

Yes, because that's 10k a month, more than any salary. The trouble is that to make this 500 every day I'd need a capital of 20k, which I can never seem to reach.

How sick is a father who teaches his son that he has to do his duty and his duty is to do things perfectly, or at least as perfectly as he can, and he has to perform this task regardless of whether his colleagues are working or not? How sick is this father? How sick a sick son is he creating? He'll create a son that vows to be a martyr.

A son that volunteers to do all work available, until he exhausts himself, and gets on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

But most of all a very sick trader, who expects every single tick to go in the direction he wishes and at the right time, or he gets disappointed and gets a heartache. A control freak who wishes to control the market.

Self-destruction... one way or another. If I don't get it by trading, i get it by staying up late... one way or another I always exceed enough to hurt my situation. Anxiety and exceeding at everything I do are what's hurting me. Maybe it's anxiety to exceed. Excessive work, excessive trading, excessive posting... worrying... no cure... just staying away from my dad and other unbalanced people like me.

Last edited by Yamato; Dec 4, 2009 at 3:26am.
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