Career In Trading

Hi

I am 22, i live in Essex, England.

I have been learning how to trade with my mentor for 6 months now, in a year or two from now, after some real trading, and after ive learnt alot more, i would love to have a salery job in trading.

I dont mean a job in one of these "arcades".

I mean a job trading or analysing for a bank or institution or even a small office of traders, what are my chances of this? I am only 22.

What options do i have? What pay can i expect from a job like that?

Thanks

Matt

Ask you mentor

Hes in California, and he has no idea about trading jobs in England, hence me asking on this board.....

GameOver22 said:

Hi

I am 22, i live in Essex, England.

I have been learning how to trade with my mentor for 6 months now, in a year or two from now, after some real trading, and after ive learnt alot more, i would love to have a salery job in trading.

I dont mean a job in one of these "arcades".

I mean a job trading or analysing for a bank or institution or even a small office of traders, what are my chances of this? I am only 22.

What options do i have? What pay can i expect from a job like that?

Thanks

Matt

Click to expand...

As someone who expertise in this and who has come in from the " cold " to become an in-house trader I have to be blunt and tell you that your chances are low.

Now I said low not impossible and the odds could go up dramatically if you only knew what to do.

I assume that you are not an Oxbridge / Harvard type in which case your chances through the front door application are virtually nil .

You must know who , what and increasinlgy important - where to apply to , that requires very special help available only from those who have been there and empathise with such people .

Obviously , nothing is for free and a regular recruitment consultant wouldn't even look in your dierction - your type cannot bring the huge fees they want . Sorry to be blunt but better to tell you this and prepare you rather than you having false expectations .

If you trade for 2 years , the some of it will depend on your record , if it's good at least 4X capital then your chances improve , if it sucks , well then it sucks .

In response to game over 22's post. If you have a good consistent system that you believe in why would you want to share it with another firm. I understand maybe you don't have enough capital to trade on your own account. Then your task is to work very hard in another job maybe even two jobs to get yourself adequately capitalised. If your system is good enough there is nothing better then trading for yourself. Its a matter of honour. If you work at a bank or fund as an ordinary trader and not a real operator your actions say you are some what dependent on another entity. Therefore in my opinion you have opted for the easy life with out the glory of trading on your own behalf. However, if you are very high up and control a very serious amount of funds that is different altogether. Using a fine example from reminisces of a stock operator, Livermore was a one man operation and thats how he always wanted it. Only when he was broke did he take a job in shame as a position in modern terms as a fund manager. So don't look at the difficulty of landing a job for a firm as a negative. If your a strong person mentally and can handle one of the most difficult professions in exsistense. Use this opportunity to fly your colours with honour and prestige and secure the glory for yourself.

First decide if you want to be an analyst or a trader they are very different jobs.Unless you have a top maths or economics degree from a top university an arcade is probably your only option to be a trader although they also usually require a degree and as you seem to think it is below you then I would look at doing something else for a living.Other than that try getting a job in the back or middle office and working your way up although there is no guarantee and it may take you many years to get there.

1) Before I left for Malaysia , I went through the " milk " rounds in London and i can tell you that they are very very sniffy of guys trying to sneak in the back door via a back office role to being a trader .

This is an old trick and one the HR depts are well used to. I remember once applying for a job in clearing and told them of my exeprience and gave them all the usual financial jargon , they were very interested til i said most of my experience was from front office . I was told straight in the face that I would not be accepted because of this.

2) Having a stellar track and asking people here to fund you would be polar oppsosites in my view .

I too have tried this before and got a very jealous response . A lot of people have emotional hangups in this game and when they say they are looking to fund " traders " . What they mean really is they want someone to lord over and that means someone who isn't too good , certainly not a great trader.

I am interested in your definition of a "trading arcade" as this is a much abused and generalised term.
A propriatray trading room will give you the financing to trade and prove your model, the systems, information and tools you will need too succeed.
If your model works, and as other contributors have indicated, with a good track record you will attract the attention of fund managers etc who will offer you good packages to trade for them.
I know of a fund company that backs traders with a solid two year track record and will give generous leverage and incentives.
A lot of prop houses will work on splits or retainers giving you the option or a combination of the twbviously the more you take in terms of a guaranteed monthly income the less generous a split you will recieve on the P&L, but if you are confident that given the trading capital you can make good money then P&L splits of 80/20 and beyond are available.

Parky said:

I know of a fund company that backs traders with a solid two year track record and will give generous leverage and incentives.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah ? Let's test you , who are they ? I have such a record and I have worked as a in house trader for a fund before .

( SJ is not holding his breath , because he knows what the answer will be - silence ! )

GameOver22 said:

Hi

I am 22, i live in Essex, England.

I have been learning how to trade with my mentor for 6 months now, in a year or two from now, after some real trading, and after ive learnt alot more, i would love to have a salery job in trading.

I dont mean a job in one of these "arcades".

I mean a job trading or analysing for a bank or institution or even a small office of traders, what are my chances of this? I am only 22.

What options do i have? What pay can i expect from a job like that?

Thanks

Matt

Click to expand...

So let me get this straight....you have been taught how to trade by some random bloke in California and now you reckon you have what it takes to trade in a large institution?!?! Firstly, you will probably learn more if you were to go to an arcade than being tea boy on a trading desk at a large IB....also unless you are Oxbridge, speak at least one language and have had a previous internship in a reputable firm you probably dont have a chance anyway....

One final thing, I think your internet mentor has a hidden agenda. His surname isn't Glitter is it?

Stockjunkie said:

Oh yeah ? Let's test you , who are they ? I have such a record and I have worked as a in house trader for a fund before .

( SJ is not holding his breath , because he knows what the answer will be - silence ! )

Click to expand...

Refco London (now Marathon) will fully back consistently profitable traders who have six months of live statements and can show the same profitability on a simulator for a couple of weeks, with similar profit splits that Parky mentions.

As will plenty of other places - i can think of two other london trading firms who do the same without even scratching my head.

I am afraid that my IB experience finished in 1985 and that my advice may well be outdated however
The first thing for you to consider is "What can I offer"
The fact that you can manipulate a "system" produced by yourself to make a profit is not enough.
Whoever you apply to will have far more experienced traders allready operating within their own framework.
Any profit you have made within the Major markets will be of no use to them as you certainly will not be offered a position in these fields.
That leaves you looking at a minor market.
My advice is pick one that suits your style and completly imm erse yourself in it. Learn every mi nor detail there is about "your " market. The FUNDAMENTALS affecting your market are far more of relevence than any system. A hard task indeed but that is what you will be paid to do if you should succeed in getting your job.
If your response to my advice is "How do I do that" give up now.

Arbitrageur

What would the industry class as good profitability? As a private trader an average 10% per month on 100k account seems pretty good but would they be looking for 10% on a 500k account or a more reasonable 4% with size?

it depends on what you trade really - and I havent gone the refco-backed route so I dont know what sort of risk reward they would expect from a backed trader. If you're interested in something like that, ring up a few places and ask.

Thanks
I was just wondering rather than looking for a career move, a little over the hill and Im not sure they would be happy with my holiday requirements ( if the Dow does 10852 to 11052 over the next 3 days I take December off )

Arbitrageur said:

Refco London (now Marathon) will fully back consistently profitable traders who have six months of live statements and can show the same profitability on a simulator for a couple of weeks, with similar profit splits that Parky mentions.

As will plenty of other places - i can think of two other london trading firms who do the same without even scratching my head.

Click to expand...

I really don't give damn about anything else unless the deal is :

1) trading the firm's capital ONLY , none of this shared capital BS.

2) trader gets a reasonable cut of profits and a smal wage

3) NO minimum amount of daily / weekly trades ! I don't churn for refco to make comms . BS to that !

What do you have to say to that ? and who the hell are these " other " firms ? name them if you are serious and not a %#@&%% tease .

Stockjunkie said:

I really don't give damn about anything else unless the deal is :

1) trading the firm's capital ONLY , none of this shared capital BS.

2) trader gets a reasonable cut of profits and a smal wage

3) NO minimum amount of daily / weekly trades ! I don't churn for refco to make comms . BS to that !

What do you have to say to that ? and who the hell are these " other " firms ? name them if you are serious and not a %#@&%% tease .

Click to expand...

1, I said backed deals, not part funded. Two different things which you seem to be confusing.

2. depends how good your track record is. the better the trader, the better a deal you can negotiate. I beleive it starts at 50% and can go upto 90% in the traders favour. Obviously if you suck, you wont get backed at all.

3. what on earth are you talking about? i somehow doubt your claim to have worked in the industry since you seem to know jack about it. never heard of anywhere that stipulates a minimum number of trades - its about profitability, not round trips. The more volume you do though, the lower your commissions are - Refco's highest comm rate is 22p on top of exchange fee's for less than 10k lots, going down to 9p on exchange fee's for higher trade vol. Hardly expensive anyway.

4. Elite derivates and STA back traders - most places do if you have a track record, there is a big list of firms in the traderpedia.

This is rather amusing tbh...

Arbitrager and parky both appear to be offering some rather useful free advice on this thread and don’t seem to have any alternative motives at all other than being genuinely helpful.

Stockjunkie on the other hand seems to enjoy criticising the advice of others and tries to hint that he has a great deal of insider knowledge about the “industry.”

He also seems to have some motives for doing this – namely his website that appears to have been designed by a 14 year old school boy:

http://www.streetwise2005.com/courses.html

It seems that for MYR 7,000 he will tell you all the secrets of the industry. And he has some spread betting records to prove how *super* he is at trading!:

http://www.streetwise2005.com/finspreads.html

Now I don’t want to get into some sort of internet bun fight over this but I feel it needs highlighting – stock junkie doesn’t seem to be using the forums to share information he simply appears to be punting for customers.

Dave_Thomson said:

This is rather amusing tbh...

Arbitrager and parky both appear to be offering some rather useful free advice on this thread and don’t seem to have any alternative motives at all other than being genuinely helpful.

Stockjunkie on the other hand seems to enjoy criticising the advice of others and tries to hint that he has a great deal of insider knowledge about the “industry.”

He also seems to have some motives for doing this – namely his website that appears to have been designed by a 14 year old school boy:

http://www.streetwise2005.com/courses.html

It seems that for MYR 7,000 he will tell you all the secrets of the industry. And he has some spread betting records to prove how *super* he is at trading!:

http://www.streetwise2005.com/finspreads.html

Now I don’t want to get into some sort of internet bun fight over this but I feel it needs highlighting – stock junkie doesn’t seem to be using the forums to share information he simply appears to be punting for customers.

Click to expand...

Yep I agree Dave, he touted me on earlier postings. He is the only Trading Expert in the world that appears to know everything but isn't actively trading at the moment. The only trader in the world that has all the industry knowledge and successful trading methodology and yet isn't actively trading at the moment. Invited me to part with some money for a course that following which he guaranteed '2 Interviews', sounds to me like he could do with them himself. He claimed that working for large institutions trading their money wasn't a happy time for him, therefore he left. Surely though you would become an Own Account trader following that wouldn't you ? Cut the rat-race ? Putting your highly succesful methods into practice ?

I am currently interviewing for trading positions within investment banks and have only recently been looking into proprietary trading firms. I'm confused. Do IB's use the same techniques? It's just IB's seem to only want candidates with good financial degrees and strong maths skills. Proprietary trading firms seem to just want people who can conduct mental arithmetic quickly and know technical analysis etc. Ive done a financial degree and in academia technical analysis is only ever really mentioned within efficient market hypothesis, no emphasis is placed on knowing it, and IB's do not expect you to have practised on virtual accounts etc. How do I go about practising trading online? are there online sims? I know I've rambled a bit but my point was, how comes the requirements and expectations seem so different at IB's and proprietary firms? Also, can anyone tell me a little more bout proprietary trading jobs please? Thanks for all your help.