Who trades using divergence between price and indicator?

DDI

Experienced member
Messages
1,293
Likes
164
I simply am not getting results. I dont think I'm doing anything wrong. I wait for the divergence confirmation between price and indicator(MACD or Stoch), followed by a bullish/bearish candlestick formation and then press the trigger. I have more losers than winners.

When I look at charts i see most the big moves had proceded some form of divergence but in practice its not working for me.

Any tips anyone?
 
Who trades using divergence between price and indicator?

Grey1 does and with huge success. He runs the Technical Trader Forum which you can apply to join through your options panel


Paul
 
there is an actual method over on the DAX thread somewhere.
search for phrase "puppies" -seriously!

it uses divergence of Stochastics to generate potential trades.
they use I believe 3-mins, although it is said to work on any time-frame.

if you search out the Daily Dax thread, read it and post there, I am sure they will help
 
Interesting post.

My trading system/methodology relies heavily on oscillator divergence from price/extreme readings. My experience is that you have to find a specific type / pattern of divergence that works more often than not, as some types/patterns are lower in probability over any given extended sample of set-ups than others.

My prefererence and the highest probability oscillator divergences are a. Regular immediate divergence and b. regular hidden/reverse divergence. There exists a secondary pattern that I call regular sequential and whilst i do not mind see-ing a regular sequential divergence pattern on the next time frame up from my trigger, confirming a regular immediate pattern on my trigger, or vice-versa, the set-up would be generally lower in probability across any given extended sample of set-ups if there existed regular sequential on both my trigger and next time frame up.

The patterns of divergence I have identified as being of the highest probability are of course based upon the oscillators i use and the settings i use them on, but generally speaking the paragraph above holds true. Elder refers to strengths of divergence too in his published works, type 1 Type 2 etc..

Furthermore, patterns of divergence mean very little without the accurate identification of support/resistance, and as I have ststed elsewhere on this board, a set-up without idintifiable potential support/resistance are for me, just pretty patterns, ie I tend to treat them with caution....that is not to say that I or any one can identify where every level of support/resistance is in my chosen market.

My point really is that you have to identify which patterns of divergence produce the greatest success over any extended sample and also use confirming factors such as channel/band deviation and support/resistance.

Understand too that with divergences that highlight possible turning points in a trend, may only be indicating relatively short lived pullbacks/retraces, all be them very trade-able.
 
Last edited:
thanx for your replies guys,

bbmac which oscillators you prefer? Also what does regular/hidden reverse divergence and a regular sequential divergence mean? can you recommend any literature. cheers
 
The screenshots show examples of
1. Regular immediate divergence
2. Regular sequential divergence
3. regular hidden/reverse divergence.

My chosen pattern set-up rules in respect of these type of divergences state that my lead oscillator (osma) has to show seperate peak/valley regular immediate/sequential divergence whereas my second oscillator (macd) can show same or seperate peak/valley regular immediate/sequential at the same time.

Insofar as Hidden/reverse divergence is concerned only regular immediate seperate peak/valley will do.

Different indicators, and even the same indicators on different settings will exhibit different behaviour characteristics and it is up to you to find the settings/behaviour characteristics that produce the highest probability patterns/set-ups for your style of trading, proven over any extended sample.


Hope this helps.
 

Attachments

  • reg immediate.gif
    reg immediate.gif
    19.2 KB · Views: 1,412
  • reg sequential.gif
    reg sequential.gif
    19.5 KB · Views: 597
  • reg hidden or reverse.gif
    reg hidden or reverse.gif
    18.2 KB · Views: 638
Refererring to say uptrend examples.

Reg immediate div: price makes higher swing hi, the oscillators make a lower swing hi, immediately next to and measured against the last oscillator peak.

Reg sequential div: price makes a higher swing high, the oscillators make a lower swing hi measured sequentially to an oscillator peak that may have osccured further back in the uptrend, ie not necessarily measured against the last swing hi peak in the oscillator, but the ovcerall pattern is one of bearish divergence

In both these examples in an uptrend the divergence is effectively reg/seq bearish divergence

reg hidden/reverse divergence

Price retraces in an uptrend and the resulting oscillator swing low is lower than the last oscillator swing low that resulted at the time of the prior retrace.

In thisa example this is bullish hidden/reverse divergence in an uptrend.

Vice versa for downtrend.
 
I simply am not getting results. I dont think I'm doing anything wrong. I wait for the divergence confirmation between price and indicator(MACD or Stoch), followed by a bullish/bearish candlestick formation and then press the trigger. I have more losers than winners.

When I look at charts i see most the big moves had proceded some form of divergence but in practice its not working for me.

Any tips anyone?

Hi DDI,

A couple of points

i) if you don't apply simple S&R and filter your divergence signals properly you could easily bust your account.
ii) bbmac has clearly illustrated that there are divergences, divergences and divergences
 
Hi DDI,

A couple of points

i) if you don't apply simple S&R and filter your divergence signals properly you could easily bust your account.
ii) bbmac has clearly illustrated that there are divergences, divergences and divergences

Thanks fibonelli. I think if I had not done a few good trend/momentum trades I would have already blown my account thanks to my bottom/top picking (by using divergences)!!
 
Following on what Fibonelli says.

A divergence occurs when price makes new highs and an indicator makes a lower high (nice simple example). For a macd divergence that means that the distance between the fast and slow mas is lower for the second high - this is a simple reduction in momentum (for physicists a loss of measured acceleration). For stoch divergence it means that the close of the high bars in its X (=stoch length) channel is lower in the second case than the first - a reduction in momentum but also takes into account position of close possibly being lower on the bar).

You can go on about how the divergence is constructed but mostly its a reduction in the acceleration of price measured over so many bars (determined by stoch, rsi or macd lengths).

And the question a trader has to ask is "for this contract, does a reduction in acceleration mean that price is likely to reverse?"

Likely is a statistical measure. To answer that question you may need some things to improve the chance of "likely." Some would use support and resistance (could be prior highs or fibs or channels or confluence of these). Some would add a second divergence. Some would say never trade divergence in a break out and run situation. I only use divergence for exits and I watch the current character of the market - some days its exit on divergence, others its exit one peak after divergence. You get the idea.

Nothing in consistently profitable trading is as easy as "got a divergence, got price confirmation, trade it." Good trading requires studying the things you want to trade and really understanding how they fit together. Which is fun (thank heavens) :)
 
The screenshots show examples of
1. Regular immediate divergence
2. Regular sequential divergence
3. regular hidden/reverse divergence.

My chosen pattern set-up rules in respect of these type of divergences state that my lead oscillator (osma) has to show seperate peak/valley regular immediate/sequential divergence whereas my second oscillator (macd) can show same or seperate peak/valley regular immediate/sequential at the same time.

Insofar as Hidden/reverse divergence is concerned only regular immediate seperate peak/valley will do.

Different indicators, and even the same indicators on different settings will exhibit different behaviour characteristics and it is up to you to find the settings/behaviour characteristics that produce the highest probability patterns/set-ups for your style of trading, proven over any extended sample.


Hope this helps.

enclosed a quick diagram.done by pg dave.this explains the types of divergence.regular sequential not on though
 

Attachments

  • hidden_divergence.PNG
    hidden_divergence.PNG
    28.9 KB · Views: 11,838
bbmac: i managed to get the bubble thread on support and resistance from forex-tsd.looks like the thread was pulled by the administrator.enclosed is a copy of what was on the thread
any reason why it got pulled.?
have u got his manual.?
are there any different methods of entry/exit for the different types of trends he describes.ie creeping/normal and blow off
 

Attachments

  • Bubble[1].doc
    836 KB · Views: 734
Simple and correct

14 period RSI divergence is good enough in any time frame

Hi TW1

Great Post IMO

Simple and effective, I would add for the sake of adding

RSi 5 for weeks :LOL: :LOL: but it does not make a jot of difference IMO :D

Andy AKA
 
Hi Dentist007

The bubble thread on Forex-tsd certainly appeared to be a good thread with a thorough understanding of peak/trough/supp/res/sbr/rbs analysis. I have no real idea why Bubble deleted it, and I don't have the manual that he is now supplying to the members of his select group of 25 for a fee. Thanks for posting the thread summary here though, I am sure that many should find it useful.

At the time the thread was live, I emailed a trading pal of mine the the link, and indeed posted a link here extolling the thread. I remember thinking that it was the single best and most important thread on the very basics of technical analysis (price action around supp/res) that I had seen on any forum in a long time.

The observations contained in the thread concerning those subjects so closely matched my own (and others) that it helped to clarify my own thinking and the further development of my own trading edge in terms of trend re-entry set-ups in areas of optimum wider importance.

Interestingly Trader_dante has recently commenced a thread here on T2W which is akin to Bubble's thread, talking about finding high probability re-entries to existing trends based around price action and a confluence of trend lines/fibs and ma pullbacks on the Hourly and Daily at identifiable Supp/res areas. He acknowledges the james16 price action and 5min intraday system (ma pullbacks) over at forexfactory as the basis of his own developed methodology, and again, I would commend his thread as one of the best I have seen so far on this whole trend/supp/res/price action subject. (s)

Bubble's descriptions of the types of trend were useful in categorising how a trend behaves at different stages of it's existance. Arguably the 'Blow-off trend' is the most difficult to get involved with because it doesn't pull back into what you may have identified as an area of sbr/rbs, ie in the example of an uptrend, somewhere between the last now exceeded higher swing high and higher swing low, the normal trend effectively pulling back to the higher swing high and the creeping trend to somewhere between.

In terms of high probability entry/exit methods for getting involved in these categorisations of trend are concerned, interestingly I spent a very productivefew days last week in chat with another trader really trying to drill down on the highest probability entry points, so the subject is currently at the top of my agenda.

Firstly I think it is important to identify what type of trend is developing/present on the time frames you trading, and sticking with Bubble's classifications, whether it is indeed a normal, creeping or blow off trend. This is important because it is no good sat waiting for a pullback to the last rbs/sbr that occurs in a normal/creeping treeping trend, if it is a so-called blow-off trend that is developing.

Although I broadly concur with his limited observations on when these type of trends occur, On the lower time frames, I tend to find that it is the creeping trend that develops most. As the trading day develops I make a seperate note of sbr/rbs areas that occur on my intermediate time frame and above and where those areas occur on more than one time frame.

Generally speaking I am looking for 4 distinct technical set-ups involving 1 or 2 band deviation/extreme deviation and hidden divergence in the oscillators on my trigger time frame at an sbr/rbs area on my intermediate time frame+. (What I class as a Reentry type 1, 2 3 or 4.) Should there be a deeper pullback (sticking with the uptrend example) ie price sells through the last potential rbs zone extreme, ie the higher swing low, on my intermediate chart, I will still look to re-enter the trend in the next intermediate rbs zone , so long as that potential rbs zone is coexistent with one on my next/longer time frame. In these situations I am now looking not for hidden divergence in my trigger oscillatios but regular divergence / extremes and now hidden divergence on my intermediate oscillators. Ie I am looking for one of my reversal set-ups to be present on my trigger chart confirmed by a Reentry set-up on the intermediate. (Reversal set-ups I identify are: Reversal type A, type A [ii], type B, type B [ii], type C, Extreme and Extreme [ii.] )

Generally speaking the more time frames that an identifiable sbr/rbs zone exists on, the stronger that zone is likely to be if tested.

Also, the stronger the trend and it's relationship to the prevailing ATR of the instrument you are trading, the greater the chance becomes of a deeper pullback into perhaps an rbs/sbr zone that is identifiable on your longer time frame zone (and others.) If this occurs then I am looking for a Reentry set-up on that time frame confirmed by a Reversal set-up on the intermediate and trigger time frame.

As you know, I tend to use repeatable indicator patterns for a re-entry signal beacuse on these lower time frames, price action can be noisier than say an hourly trigger.

Although my indicator based set-ups present themselves on all time frames, they are just a mechanism for (i) indicating whether any given identifiable level of sbr/rbs may be in play and (ii) fine tuning the entry point.The most important aspects of getting involved with a trend is the identification of price action behaviour around supp/res/sbr/rbs on your chosen time frames.

In terms of other high probability ways of getting involved in trend, the advice would have to find the methodology that is right for you within the broad context of trend/price action and supp/res analysis, and specifically

a. identifying the trend that you wish to become involved with
b. identify the potential rbs/sbr (as appropriate) that exists on that and the time frames surrounding that time frame, ie if thatis your longer time frame, identify the sbr/rbs on the next time frame down, the intermediate time frame and indeed on that itself. Look too within those sbr/rbs zones a identify if there are any signicant supp/res points that exist on the time frames above your longer time frame
c. Find a methodology that works for you to fine tune your entry if such an area is tested, This may be indicator based, or fibs/trend line or price action or a combination of any of those named and more.
 
Last edited:
I use divergence

Hello everyone!

Actually, I'd like to use divergence only as a support in making decision. I use MACD 5-34-5 and often divergence detween the indicator and the price helps me to find the entry point.
Here is the latest example.

Take a look at this Euro chart:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_Sv1U9q9koZU/RyUyvUqjYNI/AAAAAAAAAC4/0ScPvYE5Rco/s1600-h/20071029+-+eur02.gif

There I use divergence to define the trend ending.
If tou want to learn more, you can simply visit my blog:

http://fxanthony.blogspot.com/

There you can find further explanation on the current situation. I post my trading plan everyday there.
Please, feel free to ask any questions. Comments are welcomed too!:cool:

With Best Regards,
Anthony Schneider.
 
Top