Anyone can learn?

mp6140 · Apr 6, 2008, 3:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grantx

Paul,

I think you're over-simplifying the question as to why your minimum wage couple don't trade.

Why don't they trade? Little if any, spare cash; lack of security/uncertainty - their minmum wage at least ensures survival; long learning curve (realistically I reckon on 1-2 years) - how is this to financed, ie what pays the bills in the interim? However, these questions also apply to those of a middle-class background.

decent gene pool, some education to "open" the mind, lack of desperation, inability to be able to select time for study, alcoholism and drugs, not being in the "right" place at the right time and a multitude of other reasons, both real and imagined, prevent most of the "lower" classes (implied is lack of education, lack of intelligence, lack of motivation, depression, poverty and inadaquate nutrition and yes, a load of other things also !)from working their way up, although once their children grab some education, the upward mobility tends to begin !

I think it's sad that this, or any other, country cannot tap into unrealised potential be they those on a minmum wage, unemployed, prison population (ever noticed how US con's seem particularly intelligent and articulate?). I remeber hearing an account of steel worker from many years ago who left school at 14 years old, no qualifications who taught himself Sanskrit and was eventually translating into English. And became and recognised expert.

many are examples counter to what we might believe of the "lower classes" or other races and more often than not, we get slapped in the gace with the truth --- i personally think that theres an awful lot of "baggage" carried by those in those socio/economic groups and some can overcome the weight and most cant, but on down the road, as said, their children improve.

I personally failed high school, getting my diploma a year later --- tried college and failed miserably. went thru a number of auto repair jobs, was married BUT HAD NO CHILDREN, and at the age of 30, i tried college again, which proved to be a very great experience that offered me inroads into the motion picture business where, being older than most college grads, i appeared to have more experience than i really did, was hired and did good work, and became known for my photography of woman ! after MANY years of that, a second marriage WITH children, the house, two cars and all the etceteras, i rfetired young and decided to start trading, which over a period of many years developed into a rather decent income, surpassing even the unusually high income of people in the film business !

my mother was a waitress and my father was a building superintendent !

However, I don't accept the current thinking that everyone has potential or talent, contrary to the mis-placed practise of lowering standards to enable more to go to university, for example. The solution is a better education system from the start.

unfortunately, not all of us are gifted and some are not even average --- society goes thru changes and while I must state that i consider the communist system of education horrid in one way, it DID product the greatest artists and athletes not to forget chess players and spies that the world has ever seen ----- I hate the lack of freedom, but if one wants to produce an excellent "product", they sure know how to do it !

Sad, but there you go.

Grant.

enjoy the peculiar nature of humanity

mp

grantx · Apr 6, 2008, 4:00pm

MP,

“decent gene pool...”, etc.

I’ll ignore the reference to genes but you seem to be implying the working class (or blue collar in the States) are all scum for lacking what you perceive to be essential characteristics for success or improvement. I would say the reason for the lack of foresight is a pre-occupation and continuous and increasing struggle to make ends meet.

Interesting point re the communist system. However, I think they were very selective in their candidates, ie their education produced and perpetuated elitism.

Grant.

mp6140 · Apr 6, 2008, 4:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grantx

MP,

“decent gene pool...”, etc.

I’ll ignore the reference to genes but you seem to be implying the working class (or blue collar in the States) are all scum for lacking what you perceive to be essential characteristics for success or improvement. I would say the reason for the lack of foresight is a pre-occupation and continuous and increasing struggle to make ends meet.

Interesting point re the communist system. However, I think they were very selective in their candidates, ie their education produced and perpetuated elitism.

Grant.

ah no -- you miss the point entirely

did i not say that i was a failure at both high school and college, that my parents were "working class stiffs" ---- in no way does this point to lack of ability in that particular socio--economic class but rather the opposite.

you simply cannot eliminate "gene pool" from the equation, because it is a very necessary part of the whole matter, but here im talking about essentially not being a "mongolian idiot" (thats a rather old expression, is it not ?) but of normal intelligence with no serious emotional or psychological impediments.

I put myself forward to show that it was completely possible, not to show that i was gifted at birth and simply waited many years for technology to allow me to trade so easily !

trading is really not a hard job at all -- its hard for those who dont know how to play the game as newbs, but given time, which creates experience, like any other job it just gets easier and easier IF YOU ARE SO INCLINED AND WISH IT TO BE SO !

what degree of success one grows to is based on ALL factors that i mentioned and prob a whole lot i didnt, if only to add brevity to the postings, but in all professions there are those at the top 10 and those at the bottom 10 percent, and a whole lot of reasons that are far beyond my abilities or reasoning or experience to fully illustrate or ruminate on !

i will also agree with you that "circumstances" prevent people from just hoping onto trading, spending the time to learn and then becoming successful.

part of what i was trying to say was that i was married early on BUT THERE WERE NO CHILDREN and when we parted 10 years later, there was no "baggage" -- she got the nikon camera and i got the XKE and that was that.

now free as a bird, i went back to college for 4 years, did amazingly considering my prior educational success and entered into what was both an extremely high paying profession, which also was NOT a 9-5 routine and which then allowed me to pursue my interest in trading with time not ever available to wage slaves. It was so easy and so good that if i were a protestant, i would have to say that i was one of the "elect", but i carry no religion on my back, although i do carry a slight belief in predestination (which may have something to do with this conversation, but im CERTAINLY not going there !)

indeed, a blue collar family, with bills and children and inflation chewing at their ankles has little time to spend at a computer all day, but the ones who REALLY WANT IT will find a way, and they prove it daily !

but its a fun discussion anyway

mp

RM_Coiner · Apr 8, 2008, 1:43am

Well I am new to all this myself, and honestly would have no idea where to start, as in which company to trade through, the minimum required to start trading and of course what to trade, currencies, stocks etc? For me it is a mine field. Also what sites to look at to learn the basics, or even what books to read.

I made the mistake of going with an external company into one of those UK Growth trusts and would have earned more in a bank account. The company were just happy to take the money and do nothing for 5 or 6 years.

PKFFW · Apr 8, 2008, 4:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul71

Now apparently according to some, trading can be easily learned, you don't have to be born with special talents, you can be from any gene pool and still make it in this business.

Minimum wage workers poo poo all over the 'anyone can trade' theory with one foul and humungous dump.

Probably shouldn't even bother replying but here goes anyway.........

They probably fail for the very misconception you have stated there.

I don't know of any on this board who have claimed trading is easily learned. That is your misconception, intentional or otherwise, of what has been posted.

Those like the ones you mention in your post usually fail because they come into this business believing it will be easy. When it is not easy, they quit. Most all the other reasons given for failure at trading really boil down to that simple fact in my humble opinion.

Cheers,
PKFFW

nine · Apr 8, 2008, 4:20am

OK. Where angels fear to tread.

Agree: trading can not be easily learned (except for some rare parties who's genetics and prior life experience set them up perfectly to be traders (I don't know any of these people)).

Disagree: the ones you mention in your post usually fail because they come into this business believing it will be easy.

People fail in this business for a range of reasons. Believing it will be easy probably makes some of the later reasons more likely but "usually" is way to broad. Trading failure is a complex things and there are a lot of contributing factors. I'd suggest some but I don't suggest that they are either all of them or which one or combination makes up "usually." Reasons for failure:

- thought it was easy and didn't do the work
- neuroticism (over 50% genetic) making courageous trading too difficult
- didn't have enough money
- was not disciplined enough (I'm guessing that this is the big one but I also think a lot of things contribute to it or exacerbate it)
- wasn't smart enough to figure it out (over 50% genetic)
- was too smart so have the wrong behaviours built in from childhood (over 50% genetic)

And so on and so forth. My current trade, imho, is going to fail because I entered at the wrong place ...

grantx · Apr 8, 2008, 9:56am

Nine,

You seem pretty convinced that genes provide the pre-condition of an ability to trade. Has this gene been identified?

Grant.

nine · Apr 8, 2008, 10:04am

Don't display your ignorance grant

But just in case it wasn't a joke: there is no "trading gene" any more than there is a good (rhymes with luck, you'll get spam suggesting you can be a better ....) gene.

But if you believe that for different types of trading (discret day, discret longer term, system (say)) there is an impact from characteristics like risk adverseness, neuroticism, intelligence, optimism, then you will find solid research showing the genetic vs environmental components of these factors.

I never used the term pre-condition; you introduced it; and I would say that it is a foolish term except in extremes. If some one was so dumb that despite schooling they couldn't add 2+2 and come up with 4, or perhaps tie their shoe laces, then it might be a precondition. At least as far as I've bothered thinking about it, other cases the genetic elements of ones capabilities will simply be factors in success.

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Apr 6, 2008, 4:00pm	#18
grantx 2,331 Posts Joined Jun 2006	MP, “decent gene pool...”, etc. I’ll ignore the reference to genes but you seem to be implying the working class (or blue collar in the States) are all scum for lacking what you perceive to be essential characteristics for success or improvement. I would say the reason for the lack of foresight is a pre-occupation and continuous and increasing struggle to make ends meet. Interesting point re the communist system. However, I think they were very selective in their candidates, ie their education produced and perpetuated elitism. Grant.

Apr 8, 2008, 1:43am	#20
RM_Coiner 3 Posts Joined Jan 2007	Well I am new to all this myself, and honestly would have no idea where to start, as in which company to trade through, the minimum required to start trading and of course what to trade, currencies, stocks etc? For me it is a mine field. Also what sites to look at to learn the basics, or even what books to read. I made the mistake of going with an external company into one of those UK Growth trusts and would have earned more in a bank account. The company were just happy to take the money and do nothing for 5 or 6 years.

Apr 8, 2008, 4:20am	#22
nine 2,037 Posts Joined Sep 2003	OK. Where angels fear to tread. Agree: trading can not be easily learned (except for some rare parties who's genetics and prior life experience set them up perfectly to be traders (I don't know any of these people)). Disagree: the ones you mention in your post usually fail because they come into this business believing it will be easy. People fail in this business for a range of reasons. Believing it will be easy probably makes some of the later reasons more likely but "usually" is way to broad. Trading failure is a complex things and there are a lot of contributing factors. I'd suggest some but I don't suggest that they are either all of them or which one or combination makes up "usually." Reasons for failure: - thought it was easy and didn't do the work - neuroticism (over 50% genetic) making courageous trading too difficult - didn't have enough money - was not disciplined enough (I'm guessing that this is the big one but I also think a lot of things contribute to it or exacerbate it) - wasn't smart enough to figure it out (over 50% genetic) - was too smart so have the wrong behaviours built in from childhood (over 50% genetic) And so on and so forth. My current trade, imho, is going to fail because I entered at the wrong place ...

Apr 8, 2008, 9:56am	#23
grantx 2,331 Posts Joined Jun 2006	Nine, You seem pretty convinced that genes provide the pre-condition of an ability to trade. Has this gene been identified? Grant.

Apr 8, 2008, 10:04am	#24
nine 2,037 Posts Joined Sep 2003	Don't display your ignorance grant But just in case it wasn't a joke: there is no "trading gene" any more than there is a good (rhymes with luck, you'll get spam suggesting you can be a better ....) gene. But if you believe that for different types of trading (discret day, discret longer term, system (say)) there is an impact from characteristics like risk adverseness, neuroticism, intelligence, optimism, then you will find solid research showing the genetic vs environmental components of these factors. I never used the term pre-condition; you introduced it; and I would say that it is a foolish term except in extremes. If some one was so dumb that despite schooling they couldn't add 2+2 and come up with 4, or perhaps tie their shoe laces, then it might be a precondition. At least as far as I've bothered thinking about it, other cases the genetic elements of ones capabilities will simply be factors in success.

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