UK Poiltics

This is a discussion on UK Poiltics within the The Foyer forums, part of the Off the Grid category; So, even up against a shambolic, split and rather rudderless government Jezza doesn't make any progress. Says it all !...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 4, 2018, 2:40pm   #31
 
sminicooper's Avatar
Joined Jun 2016
Ooh! Jeremy Corbyn

So, even up against a shambolic, split and rather rudderless government Jezza doesn't make any progress. Says it all !
__________________
We are defined by our past!
sminicooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 2:58pm   #32
 
barjon's Avatar
Joined May 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Signalcalc View Post
I agree with the author's view that politics bores me, but the impact of politics on society is what fascinates me (skip to the last para). Will be watching the fallout from Sunday with interest....

https://altnewsmedia.net/opinion/is-...r-todays-left/
Does society shape politics or does politics shape society? Bit like like asking if the futures shape the index or does the index shape the futures.
barjon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 3:17pm   #33
Joined Feb 2002
Council elections turns out a draw.

Labour took 1 council from Conservative control, Conservatives took 1 from Labour, Lib Dems took 2 from Conservatives. (from 136 announced results of 150).

Only way this all means anything is if turnout was extraordinarily high, seems unlikely. If turnout is lower than average, you could perhaps conclude people don't think much of English politicians.
tomorton is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 4:02pm   #34
Joined May 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by barjon View Post
Does society shape politics or does politics shape society? Bit like like asking if the futures shape the index or does the index shape the futures.
Politics reacts to society which in turn causes a counter-reaction which then provokes a reaction in politics, bit a of a catch 22 Unless they are collecting taxes, in which case politics just does what it wants and society more or less puts up with it, both should be a balancing act.

However for politics to maintain control they must exert control by deception, deflection, force and secrecy, there's no other way they can attempt to control society. We all know it goes on, the game is for politics to keep it hidden, whilst society attempts to find out what they are up to. For that you need transparency, scrutiny and a none-state controlled press, none of which we really have.

However with the advent of modern communications and the internet, the free press cat is out of the bag, it's interesting to see the methods by which the establishment attempts to control it, prompting further changes in society and so on......

It's gone on since Tudor times, just the technology and methods are updated and it's a global phenomenon with much more complexity.

Last edited by Signalcalc; May 4, 2018 at 4:11pm.
Signalcalc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 4:24pm   #35
 
barjon's Avatar
Joined May 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Signalcalc View Post
Politics reacts to society which in turn causes a counter-reaction which then provokes a reaction in politics, bit a of a catch 22 Unless they are collecting taxes, in which case politics just does what it wants and society more or less puts up with it, both should be a balancing act.

However for politics to maintain control they must exert control by deception, deflection, force and secrecy, there's no other way they can attempt to control society. We all know it goes on, the game is for politics to keep it hidden, whilst society attempts to find out what they are up to. For that you need transparency, scrutiny and a none-state controlled press, none of which we really have.

However with the advent of modern communications and the internet, the free press cat is out of the bag, it's interesting to see the methods by which the establishment attempts to control it, prompting further changes in society and so on......

It's gone on since Tudor times, just the technology and methods are updated and it's a global phenomenon with much more complexity.
I don’t think politicians attempt to control society. Most try to do what they think is best for society - whilst maybe taking the opportunity to feather their own nests to a greater or lesser degree. Their job is to manage a huge number of people to enable them to live together cheek by Jowl in relative harmony and reasonable prosperity. Not easy.

Nor do I think it’s all done by deception, deflection, force and secrecy. The press delight in exposing such things - as do her majesty’s loyal opposition. That’s their job!
barjon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 4:33pm   #36
 
piphoe's Avatar
Joined Oct 2015
barjon this is so naive. maybe 100 yrs ago...

people don't just go into politics, most get involved at a low level, then fking realize the goldmine (aka PUBLIC $) they stumbled on to.

there's nothing like easy $ pilfered from taxpayer.

Don't know anything about UK, but US ...
sad state of affairs, i'm sorry to say
__________________
I said, ‘Mr Stupid, why risk everything on one trade? Why not make your life a pursuit of happiness rather than pain?’
Paul Tudor Jones
piphoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 4:36pm   #37
 
piphoe's Avatar
Joined Oct 2015
real statesmen are few and far b/w these days.

there's a few out there..not enuf

__________________
I said, ‘Mr Stupid, why risk everything on one trade? Why not make your life a pursuit of happiness rather than pain?’
Paul Tudor Jones
piphoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 4:41pm   #38
 
piphoe's Avatar
Joined Oct 2015
We are going to have to start working together on our home, the planet EARTH the only home WE all have.

Population is exploding, we must rid ourselves of the notion of selfish tribes.

I'm not suggesting the solutions are easy, by far. But we must start thinking CLEARLY. RATIONALLY.

If we are to not only survive, but prosper.

And this requires REAL STATESMEN in public service.

__________________
I said, ‘Mr Stupid, why risk everything on one trade? Why not make your life a pursuit of happiness rather than pain?’
Paul Tudor Jones
piphoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 4:52pm   #39
Joined May 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by barjon View Post
I don’t think politicians attempt to control society. Most try to do what they think is best for society - whilst maybe taking the opportunity to feather their own nests to a greater or lesser degree. Their job is to manage a huge number of people to enable them to live together cheek by Jowl in relative harmony and reasonable prosperity. Not easy.

Nor do I think it’s all done by deception, deflection, force and secrecy. The press delight in exposing such things - as do her majesty’s loyal opposition. That’s their job!
I suppose it depends on the viewpoint that you take. If you take a view that politicians are in it for the good of society then that is one viewpoint.

If you take a view that politicians are just the enactors or conduits (some would say puppets) by which society is 'controlled' by the real power brokers (rich individuals such as the George Soros's, the soon-to-be FANG powerbase, The EU collective, the banks, the corporate lobbyists etc) then you might look at politics in a different light, there are many questions that need to be answered about changes that are taking place. Those questions are becoming more difficult to ask because, lo and behold, the law is being used (and corrupted) to silence those asking the questions.

Now, I have no problem with those that wish to take the line that HM's opposition is challenging the current government or that the billion dollar corporate media 'exposes' what goes on, but when HM's opposition is no better than HM Govt from a moral standpoint, then that argument looks less convincing. Dig just a little bit deeper to see who owns, manages and funds the corporate media and you might then trust what they are saying a little less and begin to question why they are saying it. You see cover-ups and journalists that don't toe the line being smeared and sacked when they get too close to 'the truth' - why?

There are political mistakes made that are blindingly obvious that are reported on by MSM and make it into PMs questions and yet a straightforward explanation/answer is never presented, if that's not deception, deflection and secrecy then I'm not sure what is! Why so much fake news, why so much media bias?

And why should we tolerate politicians feathering their nests (just a little)? They serve us, we pay their wages, if politicians really are in it for the good of society then why do they corrupt their own positions for personal gain? And we see that corruption from the top filtering down through all aspects of civil life, not necessarily just monetarily either. We should not be tolerating it and yet it is allowed to continue, often without punishment when exposed.
Signalcalc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 5:12pm   #41
 
piphoe's Avatar
Joined Oct 2015
Everyone watch
__________________
I said, ‘Mr Stupid, why risk everything on one trade? Why not make your life a pursuit of happiness rather than pain?’
Paul Tudor Jones
piphoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 6:11pm   #42
 
barjon's Avatar
Joined May 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Signalcalc View Post
I suppose it depends on the viewpoint that you take. If you take a view that politicians are in it for the good of society then that is one viewpoint.

If you take a view that politicians are just the enactors or conduits (some would say puppets) by which society is 'controlled' by the real power brokers (rich individuals such as the George Soros's, the soon-to-be FANG powerbase, The EU collective, the banks, the corporate lobbyists etc) then you might look at politics in a different light, there are many questions that need to be answered about changes that are taking place. Those questions are becoming more difficult to ask because, lo and behold, the law is being used (and corrupted) to silence those asking the questions.

Now, I have no problem with those that wish to take the line that HM's opposition is challenging the current government or that the billion dollar corporate media 'exposes' what goes on, but when HM's opposition is no better than HM Govt from a moral standpoint, then that argument looks less convincing. Dig just a little bit deeper to see who owns, manages and funds the corporate media and you might then trust what they are saying a little less and begin to question why they are saying it. You see cover-ups and journalists that don't toe the line being smeared and sacked when they get too close to 'the truth' - why?

There are political mistakes made that are blindingly obvious that are reported on by MSM and make it into PMs questions and yet a straightforward explanation/answer is never presented, if that's not deception, deflection and secrecy then I'm not sure what is! Why so much fake news, why so much media bias?

And why should we tolerate politicians feathering their nests (just a little)? They serve us, we pay their wages, if politicians really are in it for the good of society then why do they corrupt their own positions for personal gain? And we see that corruption from the top filtering down through all aspects of civil life, not necessarily just monetarily either. We should not be tolerating it and yet it is allowed to continue, often without punishment when exposed.
Politicians used to be unpaid and although being "in the club" (rather like an advanced Old Boys network) led to personal gain, most were in it for civic duty whatever one might have thought about their policy convictions. The rot set in once they started to get paid - and they have voted themselves fat increases (and expenses) over the years - when it became a career job and attracted more of those out for themselves.

Nonetheless my personal experience suggests that there is still a strong motivation to work for the benefit of society and many work very hard in the interests of their constituents.

Political mistakes are "blindingly obvious" in hindsight, but less so at the time. There are few things where the answer is starkly black or white and most things are somewhere in the grey. In discussing something that has such pros and cons who would not place emphasis on the side that favours their position? Of course, such spin has got a bit out of hand but it is very general nowadays and not confined to politicians.
barjon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 6:27pm   #43
 
piphoe's Avatar
Joined Oct 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by barjon View Post
Politicians used to be unpaid and although being "in the club" (rather like an advanced Old Boys network) led to personal gain, most were in it for civic duty whatever one might have thought about their policy convictions. The rot set in once they started to get paid - and they have voted themselves fat increases (and expenses) over the years - when it became a career job and attracted more of those out for themselves.

Nonetheless my personal experience suggests that there is still a strong motivation to work for the benefit of society and many work very hard in the interests of their constituents.

Political mistakes are "blindingly obvious" in hindsight, but less so at the time. There are few things where the answer is starkly black or white and most things are somewhere in the grey. In discussing something that has such pros and cons who would not place emphasis on the side that favours their position? Of course, such spin has got a bit out of hand but it is very general nowadays and not confined to politicians.
jesus christ, BS

god almighty was never mired in sht

for fk sake, jesus chrit what a load

__________________
I said, ‘Mr Stupid, why risk everything on one trade? Why not make your life a pursuit of happiness rather than pain?’
Paul Tudor Jones
piphoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 6:32pm   #44
 
barjon's Avatar
Joined May 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by piphoe View Post
jesus christ, BS

god almighty was never mired in sht

for fk sake, jesus chrit what a load

I hazard a guess that you disagree then?
barjon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4, 2018, 6:46pm   #45
 
piphoe's Avatar
Joined Oct 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by barjon View Post
I hazard a guess that you disagree then?
politicians aren't quants, mostly they are lawyers, and political science (whatever that is) BS majors.

add to this good looks, and charisma..

i don't have either
actually i'm glad not i am good looking..

might have corrupted me

__________________
I said, ‘Mr Stupid, why risk everything on one trade? Why not make your life a pursuit of happiness rather than pain?’
Paul Tudor Jones
piphoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)