What size account to start with?

This is a discussion on What size account to start with? within the First Steps forums, part of the Reception category; Originally Posted by new_trader NO! This isn't good advice at all. Exit condition? How can you properly identify an exit ...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Apr 18, 2008, 4:15am   #16
 
Chorlton's Avatar
Joined Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by new_trader View Post
NO! This isn't good advice at all. Exit condition? How can you properly identify an exit condition if can't even identify an entry point? The truth is that entry and exits are equally important.
Maybe I wasn't clear in my explanation but the point I was trying to make is that one should focus more time (or at the very least an equal amount of time) on developing Exits than Entries.

I totally agree that without an Entry, one can't define an Exit but too many times people only focus on trying to determine the "perfect" entry. Maybe this is important when looking at very small timeframes but as the timeframe gets bigger, this requirement is less important.

I personally develop Long-Term mechanical strategies and have realised over time that refining the exit condition produces better results than focusing on the entry.

All IMO,

Chorlton
__________________
A Fine is a Tax for doing something wrong. A Tax is a Fine for doing something right !!

Return of Capital should always be more important than Return on Capital
Chorlton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 5:04am   #17
Joined Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chorlton View Post
Maybe I wasn't clear in my explanation but the point I was trying to make is that one should focus more time (or at the very least an equal amount of time) on developing Exits than Entries.

I totally agree that without an Entry, one can't define an Exit but too many times people only focus on trying to determine the "perfect" entry. Maybe this is important when looking at very small timeframes but as the timeframe gets bigger, this requirement is less important.

I personally develop Long-Term mechanical strategies and have realised over time that refining the exit condition produces better results than focusing on the entry.

All IMO,

Chorlton
================================================== =========

as stated, im in full agreement with you as concerns those with some decent experience --- while the "perfect" entry may give bragging rights, it sure isnt necessary to keep the wolves from the door, but if you dont know where to exit, you be in deep trouble indeed !

certainly a good observation methinks !

mp
mp6140 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 6:36am   #18
 
Mathemagician's Avatar
Joined Jan 2008
If one's exits are not so important, why does one not simply eliminate the entries altogether and use one's exits as a stop-and-reverse system?

jj
Mathemagician is offline Other (Please email T2W with details)   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 7:06am   #19
Joined Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathemagician View Post
If one's exits are not so important, why does one not simply eliminate the entries altogether and use one's exits as a stop-and-reverse system?

jj
================================================== =

outstanding idea --- can you code an EA for that ?

mp
mp6140 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 7:29am   #20
Joined Feb 2007
How can exits be more important than entries? You can't exit if you have not entered!?
Paul71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 7:59am   #21
 
Mathemagician's Avatar
Joined Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul71 View Post
How can exits be more important than entries? You can't exit if you have not entered!?
Hmmm... Maybe you're on to something there...

jj
Mathemagician is offline Other (Please email T2W with details)   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 1:03pm   #22
Joined Feb 2008
ALoha harrymonk,

I think me and you can have alot to talk about as you seem kinda similar to me, although your slightly richer than me, but my demo trading is quite alot more sucessful thn yours.


Im only demoing too at mo, trying to get a job in a firm so can trade with their money instead, as i lost about £1000 creditcard money in 3weeks when i 1st started spread betting 3months ago.


I gtg in rush but send me msg if you want to chat more or talk on msn
spanish89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 2:22pm   #23
Joined Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul71 View Post
How can exits be more important than entries? You can't exit if you have not entered!?
================================================== =================

hey paul

in any trade there is an "optimum" entry point -- usually a retrace from support and resistance and while its really "grand" to get in at the first pip, it is certainly not necessary when were talking about a move on anything over a 5 min chart.

BUT, if you miss your exit point, you CAN spin off into the heavens, and that point might not be hit again that day, week or month !

In this way, during the move, one can enter ANYWHERE they wish, but if you dont get out when you HAVE to get out, you be in trouble !

mp
mp6140 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 4:36pm   #24
Joined Feb 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp6140 View Post
================================================== =================

hey paul

in any trade there is an "optimum" entry point -- usually a retrace from support and resistance and while its really "grand" to get in at the first pip, it is certainly not necessary when were talking about a move on anything over a 5 min chart.

BUT, if you miss your exit point, you CAN spin off into the heavens, and that point might not be hit again that day, week or month !

In this way, during the move, one can enter ANYWHERE they wish, but if you dont get out when you HAVE to get out, you be in trouble !

mp

Hi MP.

I understand what you are saying (i think), but to me it all sounds a bit sloppy, i'm not saying that you are a sloppy trader, i just feel that you are bending your arguement to fit the 'exits are more important' theory.

The 'exits are more important' team seem to use all kinds of theory to back up their views. The reality of a trade is the entry, everything else is just probable. So, the better the entry the better the probability and profitability, and if a trader has trouble finding or recognising a high probability entry then how can they argue about exits as being the most important?

Nothing personal meant here Mp, just a conflict of ideologies i suppose.
Paul71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanks! The following members like this post: black bear
Old Apr 18, 2008, 4:58pm   #25
Joined Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul71 View Post
Hi MP.

I understand what you are saying (i think), but to me it all sounds a bit sloppy, i'm not saying that you are a sloppy trader, i just feel that you are bending your arguement to fit the 'exits are more important' theory.

The 'exits are more important' team seem to use all kinds of theory to back up their views. The reality of a trade is the entry, everything else is just probable. So, the better the entry the better the probability and profitability, and if a trader has trouble finding or recognising a high probability entry then how can they argue about exits as being the most important?

Nothing personal meant here Mp, just a conflict of ideologies i suppose.
================================================== =

NOTHING taken paul --- perhaps i can explain better.

if we imagine a short entry presents itself on the H1 chart
, towards the end of the evening (these, and the H4 charts are how i trade while i sleep -- i just enter a trade and leave it with my set tp points)

but anyway, weve seen what appears to be a great short trade, but 2 sisters of stunning proportions and looks barge into your home (we shall assume youre single for the moment) and DISTRACT you completely from your trading !

ok, youre not single, but your wife had to go to Quatamala to help her older sister develop a banana plantation, leaving you alone and lonely for a few years !

so a few hours later, perhaps a tad tired, they leave and you notice the trade YOU HAVENT TAKEN YET !

OMG says you, and peering at the chart you see theres still 35 pips to go before support, so you ENTER, even though its a few hours "late" for the "optimum" point !

assuming youve followed my instructions and are using the s+r overlays and your fibs, and taking into consideration the price action that has gone before, you SET YOUR TP and seek the comfort of your own bed, now solitary !

waking in the morning, a rested and new man, you take a look at your SHORT position and low and behold, you HIT THE TP right at the reversal point !!

CONGRATULATIONS BIG GUY --- youre a hell of a good trader !!!!

AND IT DIDNT MATTER WHERE YOU ENTERED !!!


SEE WHAT I MEAN !

mp
mp6140 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 5:18pm   #26
 
Mathemagician's Avatar
Joined Jan 2008
Is it really so hard to understand that the entries and exits are of equal importance? A tick gained/lost on entry is equal in value to a tick gained/lost on exit. That's the bottom line. Why create some kind of artificial divide?

jj
Mathemagician is offline Other (Please email T2W with details)   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 5:21pm   #27
Joined Feb 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp6140 View Post
================================================== =

NOTHING taken paul --- perhaps i can explain better.

if we imagine a short entry presents itself on the H1 chart
, towards the end of the evening (these, and the H4 charts are how i trade while i sleep -- i just enter a trade and leave it with my set tp points)

but anyway, weve seen what appears to be a great short trade, but 2 sisters of stunning proportions and looks barge into your home (we shall assume youre single for the moment) and DISTRACT you completely from your trading !

ok, youre not single, but your wife had to go to Quatamala to help her older sister develop a banana plantation, leaving you alone and lonely for a few years !

so a few hours later, perhaps a tad tired, they leave and you notice the trade YOU HAVENT TAKEN YET !

OMG says you, and peering at the chart you see theres still 35 pips to go before support, so you ENTER, even though its a few hours "late" for the "optimum" point !

assuming youve followed my instructions and are using the s+r overlays and your fibs, and taking into consideration the price action that has gone before, you SET YOUR TP and seek the comfort of your own bed, now solitary !

waking in the morning, a rested and new man, you take a look at your SHORT position and low and behold, you HIT THE TP right at the reversal point !!

CONGRATULATIONS BIG GUY --- youre a hell of a good trader !!!!

AND IT DIDNT MATTER WHERE YOU ENTERED !!!


SEE WHAT I MEAN !

mp



Now i see!

Good trading, Mp!

PS. Those sisters were fantastic! ...they even knew how to trade! They're booked in for next week.
Paul71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 5:27pm   #28
 
fifty2aces's Avatar
Joined Apr 2007
mp - while I agree exits are important, that's a pretty false analogy - you're pretty much arguing that being slightly inaccurate in your entry is not as bad as completely messing up your exit. Obviously this is true, but I think the point Paul was making was slightly different.

You say it didn't matter where you entered, but in actual fact, you were just a bit late getting in on a valid entry. Similarly, it wouldn't be too bad to mess up an exit, provided you weren't too far off.

I think entries and exits are both important, and without taking both into account, you can't properly determine risk/reward, and therefore your edge.
__________________
Assumption is the mother of all ****-ups
fifty2aces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 6:54pm   #29
Joined Feb 2007
It's the entry that is definative. A stop defines face value risk and a negative exit/reward. Where does that leave the positive exit?

Stops are an exit, is it important that they are kept from being hit? The aim of a good entry is to avoid the stop....no?

So you need to hit the positive exit, but where is it? And more importantly, is it realistic in terms of your entry price, yes, your entry price, not your mathamatical ratio you've made up as 2:1 or 3:1 R:R. ( Christ! what about the 'No Stop' lot)

So the whole trade is hinged around the bloody entry!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by Paul71; Apr 18, 2008 at 7:12pm.
Paul71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 18, 2008, 9:25pm   #30
Joined Oct 2006
Mp -- Perhaps Theres Another Way Of Saying It !

OK, heres how this humble trader partakes of this great game ----

what youre telling me is THEORY, and what im talking about is REALITY --

OFTEN, we miss the beginning of a trade, for anyone of uncountable reasons, BUT IF WE ARE IN THE TRADE, then the EXIT is the ONLY thing of IMPORTANCE TO US !

If we enter at the ABSOLUTE PERFECT POINT, then the EXIT is STILL OF MAXIMUM IMPORTANCE TO US.

given that in BOTH these situations, the EXIT is always considered impt and that the ENTRANCE CAN BE CORRECT OR NOT "CORRECT", it is obvious, by definition, that the EXIT is more important, since it serves both types of entries !

ANY method of trading which uses stops or voodoo to exit is simply intensely foolish to me, and to that end i once set up a $250 demo for a group i was teaching --- the purpose being to show what one could earn with that small an equity stake.

While i was proud of the increases made, what one member pointed out was that EACH AND EVERY EXIT i made was EXACTLY at the point the currency reversed and moved away from its prior trend. To use a stop, which could give away ANY number of earned pips is sacrilage to me --- to use an ma cross, which always gives away profit, is sacrilage to me --- to do anything that DOES NOT NAIL THE EXACT PRICE is sacrilage to me !

BECAUSE I AM A TRADER, and years it is to have earned that title, and if i cant tell where a price is going, in any timeframe, then i do not deserve the title !

I DO NOT use STOPLOSSES, WHICH I DO NOT ADVISE NEWBS TO TRY, so i never get "stopped" out of a trade and consider that my profit point ---- I place my tp and often simply go to sleep, waking in the morning with my profit !

what youre telling me is you DONT KNOW HOW to figure the PERFECT tp point and therefore CANT DO IT, so you count on a stop loss (which can lose you an awful lot on the exit point) to get you out of a trade !

THAT IS SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND THE ONES WHO TRADE WITH ME !

enjoy and learn well

mp
mp6140 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
demo account real account justkizzmy Forex 7 Aug 21, 2008 1:14pm
Ratio between account size and bet size cshieldsx Spread Betting & CFDs 4 Aug 13, 2007 2:05pm
specifying account size in 2ki strategy testing Kanpo Trading Software 2 Oct 22, 2006 7:04pm
Deposit account v Credit account kevin546 Spread Betting & CFDs 2 Jan 1, 2005 3:52am
Size Robertral Futures & Options 8 Jul 21, 2004 8:41am

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)