Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

This is a discussion on Keep entering the trade at the wrong time? within the First Steps forums, part of the Reception category; Originally Posted by craig5150 Thanks for all the tips. Craig Of course, never trade on tips. Haha - true in ...

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Old Sep 11, 2012, 11:30am   #33
 
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Re: Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

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Originally Posted by craig5150 View Post
Thanks for all the tips.

Craig
Of course, never trade on tips. Haha - true in that you do the research of a system yourself and you know it, how it works, what it should and shouldn't do (drawdown characteristics). Solid ground. Make it programmable, objectively testable. That's the best way.

Time charts aren't all bad. Layering the timeframes is useful. And look into buying low instead of buying high - retracement patterns - or use a small size P&F relative to your 'trend chart' (your 1m), and buy double top breakouts (if you can find good charting for this). You can probably improve timing by better defining your method.
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Old Sep 15, 2012, 9:41am   #34
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Re: Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

Hi robster,
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Originally Posted by robster970 View Post
That's not really true Tim. Time is as important as price because time and price used together can tell you whether orderflow is changing. Volume then confirms..
Apologies if I didn't make myself clear in my last post. Just to clarify, I'm not saying that time isn't important (forgive the double negative). However, for new traders, my personal view is that time can - and fequently does - muddy the waters. Trend and S&R levels are easier to see on a P&F or Renko chart than on a candlestick chart, with the added benefit that there aren't all those exciting pin bars and other such diversions to take one's focus away from the big picture. Not that there'e anything wrong with pin bars!
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P&F is not useful someone trading off 1m/5m timeframes.
Interesting - why not?

Cheers,
Tim.
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Old Sep 15, 2012, 10:45am   #35
 
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Re: Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

Hi Tim.

The short answer to this is that I don't think P&F gives you the richness of information you need to trade off the 1min TF (if you really do mean trading off 1m and not using 1m to time entries on higher TF).

This richness of information is required to make assessments about trade selection, entry and exit that occur over a 3-5min window with execution opportunities down in the 1-2min area.

Down on this TF it is quite noisy but the noise gives clues as to what is going on and if P&F is a mechanism to essentially iron out noise in relation to certainty (which time does as the timespan gets larger) then you are losing many of the cues that are likely to help in trade selection, entry and exit.

An example and a fairly typical set-up for me. So this is about as good as it gets for a reversal set-up but I'd be interested, purely as an experiment if you modelled this as a P&F chart and then tell me honestly whether you would have taken a reversal or passed on anything. For background:

1) It occurred at an unspecified level in relation to the market
2) Without T&S, I think there is enough information on this chart to have made the trade without T&S/DOM which I also have at my disposal.

If you think this is too much like hard work, then I'll understand also
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Old Sep 15, 2012, 12:54pm   #36
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Re: Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

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Originally Posted by BeginnerJoe View Post
Once you realise you are dealing with someone extremely intelligent and rich on the other side, perhaps you will find a different way to play with him.
+

Good insight. Maybe a solution is to look when the other side is willing to do some charity.
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Old Sep 15, 2012, 3:31pm   #37
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Re: Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

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Originally Posted by intradaybill View Post
+

Good insight. Maybe a solution is to look when the other side is willing to do some charity.
They become slightly charitable when they are distracted by something else, when they have bigger fishes to fry.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 12:53pm   #38
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Re: Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

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Originally Posted by robster970 View Post
but I'd be interested, purely as an experiment if you modelled this as a P&F chart and then tell me honestly whether you would have taken a reversal or passed on anything.
Hi robster,
Many thanks for the detailed explanation.

In many ways, I concur with your points. There is indeed greater detail / noise in candlestick charts and, when viewed by someone with your skills and experience, can provide important information that P&F and Renko charts don't show. Additionally, I found that P&F is pretty useless for plotting the ES, as you can't get the granularity required, unless one drops down from a 3-box reversal to a 2-box or 1-box chart. My use of P&F is both elementary and traditional - so I just stick to the 3-box! However, when I day traded the YM (I don't anymore), I used P&F to plot $Tick which worked very well, enabling me to enter when equities and futures were in concert. One could see the sentiment shifting in a very clear and visual way on the P&F chart which, IMO, was much harder to see on a standard candlestick chart.

I'm in the process of switching to a longer term swing trading approach, so I'm afraid I no longer subscribe to the wonderful InvestorRT charts which would have enabled me to provide visual examples. Sorry!

To conclude, I hear what you're saying and, to a greater or lesser extent, I agree with your comments. However, in certain applications, non time based charts are a real boon. Just from a screen real estate perspective, they generally contain much more history than a candlestick chart, which in itself is often a real asset.
Tim.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 3:47am   #39
 
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Re: Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

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Originally Posted by NVP View Post
you are trading retail prices instead of wholesale prices
can someone explain what this means? I tried goggling wholesale stock pricing but the first hits are either about costco or general wholesale (and are not investment related), is retail and wholesale pricing in this for currency pricing and not security prices?

Last edited by kd2029; Jun 20, 2013 at 4:06am.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 8:38am   #40
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Re: Keep entering the trade at the wrong time?

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can someone explain what this means? I tried goggling wholesale stock pricing but the first hits are either about costco or general wholesale (and are not investment related), is retail and wholesale pricing in this for currency pricing and not security prices?
There is a saying in the professional trading community - buy wholesale and sell retail. Conceptually the idea is to buy where the big boys are accumulating and sell where retail is buying. In its most simplistic form is to buy retracement and sell rallies. The big boys supposedly don't chase prices but will work the market to get wholesale prices. It means they will sell to grab from weak longs.
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