Can you be long and short at same time?

This is a discussion on Can you be long and short at same time? within the Discretionary Trading forums, part of the Methods category; Originally Posted by Lord Flasheart please dont take this the wrong way,I am genuinely trying to help, we all do ...

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Old Apr 29, 2013, 12:21pm   #61
x4x
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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Originally Posted by Lord Flasheart View Post
please dont take this the wrong way,I am genuinely trying to help, we all do stuff like this in our early days. Good luck
Actually, if you're genuinely trying to help me perhaps you could first tell me what is wrong with being 'flat'?
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 12:35pm   #62
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

My short and long are both paid for - I took around 45 (1/2) points off my long with 16.5 (1/2) points at risk, so profit has been made with NO risk. I took 25 (1/2) points at the same 127.90 area, with 24.5 (1/2) points at risk, so that too, is paid for with NO risk. I currently have 47 (1/2) points profit on my long trade and 21 (1/2) points on my short - you don't see the advantage, I don't see the disadvantage, perhaps you could enlighten me - and no need to be condescending about it if you're 'genuinely trying to help'.

Last edited by x4x; Apr 29, 2013 at 12:47pm. Reason: Added (1/2) to open positions
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 12:53pm   #63
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

x4x i'm sorry but your explanation doesn't make sense IMHO , but if its working for you for some psychological reason then fair enough but that's just an illusion and in the long run it will hurt you because of the double costs you're paying don't underestimate costs and fees , ( trading101 : long and short at the same time = flat ) , as mentioned earlier this is only valid if you are trading 2 different time frames in 2 different accounts with different stops and target levels in place , but it is certainly isn't valid if you are using it as a tactic to skip risk or taking losses .
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:12pm   #64
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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x4x i'm sorry but your explanation doesn't make sense IMHO , but if its working for you for some psychological reason then fair enough but that's just an illusion and in the long run it will hurt you because of the double costs you're paying don't underestimate costs and fees , ( trading101 : long and short at the same time = flat ) , as mentioned earlier this is only valid if you are trading 2 different time frames in 2 different accounts with different stops and target levels in place , but it is certainly isn't valid if you are using it as a tactic to skip risk or taking losses .
I don't see why you think I'm skipping risk or loss - I have no risk & I have profits locked in - so you still haven't convinced me of the disadvantage. If I hadn't have 'hedged' I may well have had several more trades - which would also incurr costs - so that doesn't convince me either.

I am simply waiting for the market to show me its direction before, taking profits, or adding to my existing position, I've already explained that I'm waiting for a 30 close above 128.15, whereby I'll consider holding my NO RISK long position.

LF suggested I close out my first position - at the time the market was at 127.85 - it's now at 128.25 - and if I wanted to go long, it might take me several bites before getting it right - more costs....and before you all chime in that Im not making anything - I know that - but I'm well positioned to do so if this is a trend reversal - if it isn't I already have a bit of profit today anyway.
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:17pm   #65
 
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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My short and long are both paid for - I took around 45 (1/2) points off my long with 16.5 (1/2) points at risk, so profit has been made with NO risk. I took 25 (1/2) points at the same 127.90 area, with 24.5 (1/2) points at risk, so that too, is paid for with NO risk. I currently have 47 (1/2) points profit on my long trade and 21 (1/2) points on my short - you don't see the advantage, I don't see the disadvantage, perhaps you could enlighten me - and no need to be condescending about it if you're 'genuinely trying to help'.
The point is if you are flat,there is no advantage at all.Even if you are weighted 2 long and 1 short,you have paid 3 spreads for one position.Sorry,I did not mean to sound condescending and apologise if I do. Yes your positions may be paid for because the market is going up and down,but when you take off a position,you are actually taking a position. please understand it is a pointless and costly excercise even if you make profits on both trades
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:19pm   #66
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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I don't see why you think I'm skipping risk or loss - I have no risk & I have profits locked in - so you still haven't convinced me of the disadvantage. If I hadn't have 'hedged' I may well have had several more trades - which would also incurr costs - so that doesn't convince me either.

I am simply waiting for the market to show me its direction before, taking profits, or adding to my existing position, I've already explained that I'm waiting for a 30 close above 128.15, whereby I'll consider holding my NO RISK long position.

LF suggested I close out my first position - at the time the market was at 127.85 - it's now at 128.25 - and if I wanted to go long, it might take me several bites before getting it right - more costs....and before you all chime in that Im not making anything - I know that - but I'm well positioned to do so if this is a trend reversal - if it isn't I already have a bit of profit today anyway.
No you don't have profits locked in , as i said it is just an illusion . The validity of daytrading itself is questionable because of the costs and the fees , how about paying double the costs just to be flat ! what could be worse ?!
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:24pm   #67
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

Flash, I thought I had responded to your inquiry, but I am not seeing it in this tread.

Here is a specific example. I believe the reason for the price fall in QCOR has been resolved and insurance companies will continue to cover their MS drug. It is trading at 29.28 at the moment. Its upside will be constrained by the fact the Aetna issue is still in everyones mind.

My recommendation would be to sell a Jun 23/21 bull put spread and a Jun 34/36 bear call spread. You keep the entire premium as long as QCOR stays between 23 and 34. If the ticker ecapes out of this range on of the trades will be a winner and one a loser, so the max loss is reduce if you are wrong. And you make over 200% ananualized on this trade at expiration.

Most of my credit trades, however, use either naked puts or single vertical credit spreads (so most of the time I do not use iron condors), and hedge in the direction of my thought on the impending movement. I am looking for trades that deliver 200% annualized return based on the margin requirement and 15% downside (or upside in the case of a bear trade) protection. In the case of QCOR, I expect it to go up, but even if I am wrong and it goes down up to 15% my bull put speard is a max winner.

If anyone is interested in building a team to persue this strategy in a forum, please go to HIgh Probability Credit Options thread in the Trading Systems Forum. I have been trading this system exclusively for nearly two years, and the purpose of the team is to have more eyes looking for ideal candidate.

Drake

Last edited by graydrake; Apr 29, 2013 at 1:33pm.
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:27pm   #68
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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No you don't have profits locked in , as i said it is just an illusion . The validity of daytrading itself is questionable because of the costs and the fees , how about paying double the costs just to be flat ! what could be worse ?!
Please explain why I don't have profits locked in - I have open profit and NO RISK on either trade?
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:35pm   #69
 
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

Hi Greydrake. I have no problem in what you are doing,we sort of diversified a little on the thread and are talking about say forex,going one position long and one sort in the same market. Options are different. ive been bunrt with options but often look at ways of beating them.
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:37pm   #70
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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Please explain why I don't have profits locked in - I have open profit and NO RISK on either trade?
If you mean the profits which you've made after you took the hedge then clearly you made a profit in one side and a loss on the other , plus you've paid double the fees . And if you mean the profits which you've made earlier b4 you take the hedge then these profits are unrealised , maybe when you try to close all the positions , you will incur a big slippage or your platform will freeze or ..... etc .
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:42pm   #71
 
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

Ok,lets take this back to basic and use this example to prove our points

The market is priced at 1000. you go one short and one long at a price of 1000.
The market falls 20 point to your short target,so you take it out for +20. At this point you are still flat as your long is 20 pips down. So you now what the market to go up.
The fact is this,you have only began trading at this point as you are now 1 long and have wasted 1 spread to get there. Anything that has happened before is piont less,you should have just waited as the entry point is only relevant when you take one position off. Is that clearer
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:44pm   #72
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

30M closed right on 128.15.....and back to 1H/4H S/R @ 127.90.

No business can be run without costs - but costs need to be controlled - I think I've done that by only making two entries, I have covered the spread costs, locked in profits and have removed ALL risk on both trades - still don't see where the problem is, as I'm still happy with both positions.
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:49pm   #73
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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Originally Posted by Lord Flasheart View Post
Ok,lets take this back to basic and use this example to prove our points

The market is priced at 1000. you go one short and one long at a price of 1000.
The market falls 20 point to your short target,so you take it out for +20. At this point you are still flat as your long is 20 pips down. So you now what the market to go up.
The fact is this,you have only began trading at this point as you are now 1 long and have wasted 1 spread to get there. Anything that has happened before is piont less,you should have just waited as the entry point is only relevant when you take one position off. Is that clearer
Of course - that is absolutely pointless, but you asked for an example of when it could work:

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please give an example of what you do and include the prices,thanks
...but sometimes when you have conflicting trends, and the market is at good levels to play them, it can work well.
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:51pm   #74
 
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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My short and long are both paid for - I took around 45 (1/2) points off my long with 16.5 (1/2) points at risk, so profit has been made with NO risk. I took 25 (1/2) points at the same 127.90 area, with 24.5 (1/2) points at risk, so that too, is paid for with NO risk. I currently have 47 (1/2) points profit on my long trade and 21 (1/2) points on my short - you don't see the advantage, I don't see the disadvantage, perhaps you could enlighten me - and no need to be condescending about it if you're 'genuinely trying to help'.


So let's says the market sudden rises 100 pnts due to news item, So you decide to close your short position for a loss because you think that the market is now going to continue upwards.

But the market changes direction and your long position goes into loss.

Now where's that "locked in" & "risk free" profit you are talking about?

It's an illusion. All you are doing is using up twice the spread and margin that you should be.
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 1:51pm   #75
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Re: Can you be long and short at same time?

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If you mean the profits which you've made after you took the hedge then clearly you made a profit in one side and a loss on the other , plus you've paid double the fees . And if you mean the profits which you've made earlier b4 you take the hedge then these profits are unrealised , maybe when you try to close all the positions , you will incur a big slippage or your platform will freeze or ..... etc .
I took half profits at a profit on the long and at break even on the short - I can't lose anything on either position - unless of course I'm slipped, but that can happen on any position and has nothing to do with this discussion.
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